1 1 COUNTY OF HUDSON PLANNING BOARD 2 3 MEETING OF THE HUDSON : TRANSCRIPT COUNTY PLANNING BOARD : OF 4 : PROCEEDINGS - - - - - - - - - 5 June 17, 2009 6 County Annex Building 567 Pavonia Avenue 7 3rd Floor Freeholders Chambers 8 Jersey City, New Jersey Commencing at 6:30 p.m. 9 10 JOANNE M. OPPERMANN, C.C.R. 11 B E F O R E: 12 MARY AVAGLIANO, CHAIRWOMAN RUSHABH MEHTA, VICE CHAIRMAN 13 MICHAEL HOLLOWAY, CHAIRMAN PRO-TEMPORE DEMETRIO ARENCIBIA, COMMISSIONER 14 JUDE FITZGIBBONS, COMMISSIONER JOSE MUNOZ, COMMISSIONER 15 KENNEDY NG, COMMISSIONER 16 A L S O P R E S E N T: 17 THOMAS CALVANICO, ESQ., BOARD ATTORNEY JOHN J. CURLEY, ESQ., ASSISTANT BOARD ATTORNEY 18 STEPHEN MARKS, PP, AICP, PLANNING DIRECTOR MEGAN MASSEY, PRINCIPAL PLANNER 19 DANIELA CIAMMARUCONI, PLANNING AIDE MARIO TRIDENTE, BUILDING INSPECTOR/ZONING 20 OFFICER EDWIN REIMON, MEDINA CONSULTANTS 21 22 23 24 25 Job No.: 203264 2 1 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Good evening, 2 everyone. I would like to start the Hudson County 3 Planning Board meeting. It is now 6:45-6:47 and it's 4 June 17th. I'm sorry there are not enough seats for 5 everyone. There might be more available in the back. 6 Thank you. 7 Counselor, has this meeting properly 8 been advertised. 9 MR. CALVANICO: Yes, Madam Chairlady, 10 the meeting has been properly advertised in 11 accordance with the Open Public Meetings Act and has 12 been posted on the bulletin boards of both the Board 13 of Freeholders and the Council. 14 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: May I have the 15 roll call, please? 16 DIRECTOR MARKS: Arencibia? 17 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Here. 18 DIRECTOR MARKS: Bettinger? 19 Not present. 20 Choffo? 21 No, not present. 22 Commissioner Dublin? 23 Not present. 24 Commissioner Fitzgibbons? 25 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Present. 3 1 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Holloway? 2 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Here. 3 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Mehta? 4 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Here. 5 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Munoz? 6 FREEHOLDER MUNOZ: Here. 7 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner NG? 8 COMMISSIONER NG: Here. 9 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairwoman Avagliano? 10 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Here. 11 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, we have a 12 quorum. 13 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 14 Everyone has received the minutes of the 15 last meeting. May I have a motion to accept? 16 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: I'll make the 17 motion. 18 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: I second. 19 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, on a 20 motion to approve the minutes from May 20th, 2009, 21 made by Commissioner Holloway, seconded by 22 Commissioner Mehta. 23 Commissioner Arencibia? 24 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Aye. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 4 1 Fitzgibbons? 2 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 3 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Holloway? 4 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 5 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Mehta? 6 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Aye. 7 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Munoz? 8 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Abstain. 9 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner NG? 10 COMMISSIONER NG: Abstain. 11 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairwoman Avagliano? 12 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: I abstain. 13 Is everyone in the public, that would 14 like to speak -- we're going to do it at the end, 15 when we hear the entire application. Then the 16 speakers will come up. Is that understood? 17 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Yes, ma'am. 18 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: I have a 19 question. 20 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 21 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: I do have a 22 question. 23 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Are we going to 24 be able to ask the witnesses questions? 25 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Can't hear you. 5 1 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Are we going to 2 be able to ask the witnesses any questions at the 3 time or do we have to wait until after they -- 4 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: After the entire 5 application is heard, then we'll have questions and 6 answers. 7 Will you start, Director? Would 8 everyone please stand for the salute to the flag? 9 (All rise to salute the Flag.) 10 Thank you. 11 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, this is 12 the time set aside. At the March 18th Planning Board 13 meeting, the Planning Board introduced the Foreign 14 Trade Zone Study for public comments, and the Foreign 15 Trade Zone Study was mailed out to the municipal 16 clerks, mayors, planning board secretaries and other 17 economic development officials throughout the county. 18 It was advertised in The Jersey Journal, posted on 19 the bulletin board of the County Clerk, and also the 20 Forest Trade Zone Study itself was also posted on the 21 Web site of the Division of Planning. 22 It's now time to open up the public 23 hearing for the Hudson County Foreign Trade Zone 24 Study. 25 Is there any member of the public who 6 1 would like to comment on the Hudson County Foreign 2 Trade Zone Expansion Study? 3 Madam Chair, seeing none, I would 4 recommend that the Board close the public hearing for 5 the Hudson County Foreign Trade Zone Expansion Study. 6 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Motion to close. 7 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Second. 8 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, on a 9 motion to close the public hearing, made by 10 Commissioner Munoz, and seconded by Commissioner 11 Holloway. 12 Commissioner Arencibia? 13 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Aye. 14 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 15 Fitzgibbons? 16 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Holloway? 18 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 19 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Mehta? 20 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Aye. 21 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Munoz? 22 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Aye. 23 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner NG? 24 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairwoman Avagliano? 7 1 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 2 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, the motion 3 passes. 4 Yes, Commissioner? 5 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: I'd like to ask a 6 question to Mr. Marks. 7 We had compared -- I know currently it's 8 a Trade Zone, is that correct, Foreign Trade Zone? 9 DIRECTOR MARKS: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Do the County 11 people intend on getting any advantage by imposing 12 this Trade Zone on the town? Do you know of any 13 business has come to the area since they -- 14 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, there are 15 definite federal tax benefits for companies doing 16 international trade, foreign trade, import/export. 17 Doing business in a designated Foreign Trade Zone, 18 for South Kearny, what the Freeholder is mentioning, 19 the Foreign Trade Zone in South Kearny is part of the 20 Foreign Trade Zone No. 49, which is administered by 21 the Port Authority. And there are businesses located 22 in the Foreign Trade Zone No. 49 in South Kearny and 23 they do have benefits. I'm not sure exactly what 24 transactions go on in South Kearny, but they do take 25 advantage, there are companies in South Kearny that 8 1 do take advantage of the benefit. 2 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Why are we looking 3 to put that Trade Zone in the county? 4 DIRECTOR MARKS: Basically Hudson County 5 is at the center of the Port of New York and New 6 Jersey. It's a major hub for foreign trade , being 7 the home of Port Jersey and Global Marine Terminal 8 and the former Military Ocean Terminal at Bayonne. 9 Which 125 acres of the Terminal is reserved for 10 maritime use. 11 So there are definite -- Hudson County 12 has a lot of foreign trade going on. You may not 13 know it but a lot of our warehouses, a lot of our 14 companies take advantage of the close proximity to 15 the ports. And the Foreign Trade Zone status confers 16 certain tax benefits for those companies. So it's a 17 way of local businesses to save money. 18 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Thank you. 19 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 20 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, the next 21 item on the agenda is 5-B, memorialization of 22 resolutions approved, conditionally approved or 23 denied at the last meeting. 24 Beginning with application 25 2009-005-SP, Bayonne Kennedy Holdings, LLC, located 9 1 at 1040-1046 Kennedy Boulevard, which is Block 87, 2 Lots 1 through 4 and 19 in the City of Bayonne. 3 And application 2009-009-SP, 1303 4 Madison Street, LLC, located at John F. Kennedy 5 Boulevard at 35th Street which is Block 213, Lots 1 6 through 7 and 69 through 74 in the City of Union 7 City. 8 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: I move the motion. 9 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I second it. 10 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, on a 11 motion made by Commissioner Mehta, seconded by 12 Commissioner Fitzgibbons. 13 Commissioner Arencibia? 14 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Aye. 15 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 16 Fitzgibbons? 17 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 18 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Holloway? 19 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 20 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Mehta? 21 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Aye. 22 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Munoz? 23 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Aye. 24 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner NG? 25 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 10 1 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairwoman Avagliano? 2 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Aye. 3 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, the motion 4 passes. 5 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: All right. 6 Excuse me, Director. Before I forget, please hold 7 off on your cell phones so we can proceed with the 8 meeting without interruptions. I'd appreciate it, 9 thank you. 10 Go ahead, Director, thank you. 11 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, the first 12 application scheduled for public hearing this evening 13 is 2008-083-SP/SD, Avak Properties LLC & 7301 & 7311 14 River Road -- I'm sorry, it's Avak Properties LLC, & 15 U & G Development, LLC, located at 7301 & 7311 River 16 Road, & 7440 Boulevard East & 7401-515 River Road, 17 which is Block 316, Lots 10, 11, 12.01, and 12.02 in 18 the Township of North Bergen. 19 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Shall we proceed? 20 MR. OURY: Good evening, ladies and 21 gentlemen, members of the Board. Dennis Oury, 22 appearing on behalf of the applicant, Avak. 23 This is a continuation of a hearing that 24 I think took place on February 28th of this year. 25 For various reasons, the continuation has taken until 11 1 today to get here. 2 I reviewed the transcript of the last 3 hearing and just to refresh everybody's memory, 4 because I think everybody here was there that 5 night -- 6 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Is the mic on? 7 MR. OURY: I'm sorry -- Mr. Bertin 8 testified, who is our site engineer. I'm going to 9 have him, because of the time delay, summarize his 10 testimony from the last hearing, but of course that 11 transcript is part of the record, and of course, if 12 the Board has any specific questions with regard to 13 the application, you can ask him, but I'm just going 14 to ask him to refresh everybody's memory and then go 15 into what's transpired from that date to today with 16 regard to the rock stabilization. And there has been 17 much activity with regard to that since 18 February 28th. 19 I then intend to have Lisa Mahle, of 20 Johnson Soils, who is a geotechnical expert, testify 21 with regard to the rock stabilization. 22 I know that Mr. Chewkaskie is here this 23 evening, I think he wants to introduce himself before 24 we get started. He's here with an engineering 25 witness also. 12 1 MR. CHEWKASKIE: Members of the Board, 2 my name is Brian Chewkaskie. I represent the 3 Township of North Bergen. 4 And based upon, I guess the Township 5 monitoring the application at the County Planning 6 Board, they have asked us to participate. And also 7 to advise the Board of a little history and what we 8 intend to do this evening. 9 First off, this application that you 10 have before you has undergone scrutiny by the North 11 Bergen Planning Board. There were three public 12 hearings held over the summer of 2008, and ultimately 13 a resolution was adopted in November of 2008, which 14 had certain conditions. Some of those conditions may 15 be of a concern to this Board. 16 Subsequent to that approval, the 17 applicant subjected to a developer's agreement to 18 assure that the development addresses all the 19 concerns of the Board and conforms with all 20 construction requirements including those with 21 respect to any slope that may be in issue. 22 The Township does have a concern because 23 portions of this property were sold at a public 24 auction to one of the current applicants that you 25 have before you. 13 1 Where we are at today is that there were 2 certain concerns with respect to the slope and the 3 implementation of the construction on the site, which 4 you will hear from Mr. Oury's witnesses. However, 5 with me this evening is Luma Oweis, a geotechnical 6 engineer, who was retained by the Township of North 7 Bergen for several reasons. The first reason was, is 8 to assure that the investigatory activities that are 9 being undertaken by the applicant conform with 10 standard engineering practices. 11 The other is to provide oversight and 12 recommendations once those investigations are 13 completed. 14 And then the third step would be, once 15 there's construction to occur on the site, that there 16 many be an overview by Ms. Oweis to assure that what 17 was investigated, recommended and agreed to, is 18 actually implemented. 19 At this point in time, if anyone has 20 been on Boulevard East, they will see a drill rig. 21 Purpose of that drilling rig is for the investigation 22 to determine the integrity of the slope. 23 That's why we're here this evening. I 24 would ask to be able to present some testimony from 25 Ms. Oweis at the conclusion of the applicant's case. 14 1 So, unless there are any questions, I 2 will sit down. 3 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 4 MR. CHEWKASKIE: Thank you. 5 MR. OURY: My first witness will be 6 Mr. Bertin. 7 Lisa, could you put up on the tripod, 8 the colored rendering so we can use that as a tool to 9 refresh the Board's memory? 10 C A L I S T O B E R T I N, having been 11 duly sworn, testifies as follows: Calisto Bertin. 12 MR. CALVANICO: State your name, spell 13 your last name, and if you would, when you refer to 14 the document, please identify the drawing by date and 15 number and we'll have them marked for identification. 16 MR. OURY: I believe the first document 17 we're going to use has already been marked, is that 18 correct, as A-20, on February 18th, '09? 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. OURY: 20 Q. Mr. Bertin, you're a licensed engineer, 21 to refresh the Board's memory -- 22 A. Let me answer his question, please. 23 Calisto Bertin. C-A-L-I-S-T-O. 24 B-E-R-T-I-N. My office is at 66 Glen Avenue in Glen 25 Rock, New Jersey. 15 1 Q. Mr. Bertin, you qualified, at the 2 February 18th meeting, as the site engineer with 3 regard to this application; is that correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You gave extensive testimony, with 6 regard to this particular application, at that time; 7 is that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. At that time, a site plan, which a 10 colored version of the site plan was placed in 11 evidence, as A-20, which is to your right at the 12 present time; is that correct? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. Can you explain in a summary fashion, so 15 we don't have to regurgitate your whole testimony 16 from the last meeting, what this application entails? 17 A. Yes, this application entails the 18 development of several lots opposite the hospital 19 along River Road. We intend to take -- there's a 20 traffic light at Palisades General Hospital on River 21 Road; we intend to make that a four-way intersection; 22 it's currently a three-way. That fourth leg will be 23 the leg that goes into this property. 24 The property has three buildings that we 25 propose. To the north end is a Walgreens, which is 16 1 14,500 square feet. And then we have the entrance 2 driveway. And then below that we have a Bank of 3 America, which is 2,500 square feet. And then, 4 beyond that we have an unspecified coffee shop like a 5 Starbucks. 6 This project has been approved by the 7 North Bergen Planning Board. And also -- there's 107 8 parking spaces, which meets the required number of 9 parking spaces. 10 Q. Okay. Now, with regard to your 11 testimony at the last meeting, I reviewed the 12 transcript and there were probably 15 separate 13 documents that were entered into evidence. And they 14 consisted of letters between yourself, Mr. Marks, 15 myself, the engineers, and various consultants with 16 regard to this project; is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And those documents brought us through 19 February 11th, if I recall correctly, the hearing 20 date being on February 18th; is that correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And to summarize, is it fair to say, 23 with regard to the stormwater runoff issue, which is 24 an issue that the County is actually concerned about, 25 we, the applicant, specifically yourself and other 17 1 members of your staff, met with the County 2 Engineering Department, which included representative 3 Medina, at various points; is that correct? 4 A. Yes, we met with the representative from 5 Medina Consultants at the end of March. 6 Q. And there was a meeting, I believe, with 7 some of the members of the Planning Board's -- 8 there's a subcommittee of the Planning Board; is that 9 correct? Mr. Basralian and I attended that meeting 10 on our behalf? 11 A. That was a work session that occurred 12 before the last Planning Board hearing. 13 Q. Right. 14 A. Yes. But we did attend it. 15 Q. To refresh your memory, a letter, dated 16 October 7, 2008, which has been entered into evidence 17 as Exhibit 8, which is a letter from Medina 18 Consultants to Mr. Marks, and which we were copied, 19 gave the analysis of the stormwater management, the 20 sewer issues, if there are any, and some of the 21 stability issues; is that correct? 22 A. Yes; and traffic. 23 Q. And traffic. And your office answered 24 that letter sometime in November 13th, I believe, 25 which was marked as Exhibit 12. You answered many, 18 1 if not all, of those questions that were raised and 2 issues that were raised with regard to stormwater 3 management; is that correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Since that time, have you received any 6 correspondence from the County Engineering Department 7 with regard specifically to stormwater management? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you had conversations with, I guess 10 it's Mr. Reimon that we have the conversations with, 11 he's assigned to this project, with regard to a 12 stormwater management issue? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What were the substance of those 15 conversations? 16 A. We -- I mentioned before, we had a 17 meeting in March. My office then sent him plans and 18 a letter outlining the remaining minor issues. I 19 called up Mr. Reimon today to see if a letter was 20 coming and to see if he had any other comments and 21 the response I got was that the traffic and drainage 22 were fine. 23 Q. Okay. So at the point, at this point he 24 verbally advised you that there were no questions 25 with traffic or with regard to drainage. There are 19 1 also, naturally, sewer issues, I believe, that the 2 County might get involved with. Sanitary sewer line; 3 is that correct? Or would that be more municipal? 4 A. That's municipal and it's the MUA. 5 Q. And we have addressed any issues that 6 have arisen from the local municipality with regard 7 to sewer issues; is that correct? 8 A. That would have happened at planning 9 board, at municipal planning board stage, and yes, we 10 addressed all the issues. 11 Q. Now, one of the issues that has come up, 12 with regard to this application, is the Steep Slope 13 Ordinance which was implemented by the County, I 14 believe in October 2008, and its application to this 15 project; is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Just to go back for a second, when we 18 appeared last summer before the local planning board, 19 the issue of the slopes and removal of soil was 20 addressed by the local planning board; is that 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And the original project was changed as 24 a result of suggestions that were made by the local 25 planning board with regard to the placement of at 20 1 least one of the buildings? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Can you explain to the Board what 4 happened with regard to that issue? 5 A. The original application was somewhat 6 different than the plan that is marked as A-20. And 7 we showed you a plan last meeting, it was marked 8 A-19. It just shows the Walgreens section of the 9 site. I'll point out the difference. Difference is 10 that there's parking spaces in front of the 11 Walgreens, between the Walgreens and River Road. 12 The North Bergen Planning Board asked us 13 to review this, to eliminate those spaces and move 14 the building forward so we would have less 15 disturbance to the cliff. Thus you'll notice, back 16 in A-20, those parking spaces were removed and we 17 pulled the building forward. 18 Q. Now, since the last meeting, 19 February 18th, there's been a fair amount of activity 20 with regard to the slopes and the removal of 21 material; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And can you explain to the Board, at 24 this point how much material needs to be removed? 25 A. I'm going to get the paper before I just 21 1 do it from memory. 2 Q. Go ahead. 3 A. Yes, a calculation was submitted that 4 shows the total material, soil and rock, that's to be 5 removed, as 105,500 cubic yards. 6 Q. Now, originally -- or with the original 7 application from your office, the amount was 8 different than that, was it not? 9 A. Yes. It was about three times that. 10 Q. About 300,000 cubic yards? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And can you tell the Board, please, how 13 that difference was found out and why it was 14 different? 15 A. One of our engineers made a mistake. A 16 yard is three feet and he used feet instead of yards 17 and when you take the difference in yards, it's 18 one-third what it is in feet. 19 Q. We've resubmitted the new calculation to 20 the North Bergen Planning Board and to North Bergen; 21 is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. It's my understanding, maybe Lisa will 24 get into this, that this figure of 110,000 cubic 25 yards has been submitted to Luma Oweis? 22 1 A. Hundred five. 2 Q. Hundred five thousand cubic yards have 3 been submitted to Oweis and they have confirmed 4 through their own calculation that this is correct. 5 Is that correct? 6 A. That's my understanding, yes. 7 Q. Can you explain to the Board what has 8 transpired since the last meeting with regard to rock 9 stabilization, drilling and things of that nature? 10 A. In drilling terms, not in technical 11 terms, my office had a meeting with Mr. Oury and the 12 municipality, in the beginning of April, to discuss 13 the town's oversight of this issue. And then from 14 that point, the town had already secured the services 15 of a geotechnical engineer. 16 We, we meaning our office and Johnson 17 Soils, we put together a scope of work or a scope of 18 study, to investigate the cliff and the rock, that 19 would satisfy the municipal's concerns. That scope 20 was modified a few times, until we all agreed on what 21 the scope would be. 22 Q. And in fact, there was at least one hole 23 that was drilled over the last, I guess it was within 24 the last 30 days; is that correct? 25 A. Yes, actually one boring was completed 23 1 and another one was almost completed but we had to 2 abandon it and now they started a third boring just 3 this week. 4 Q. I understand yesterday the borings were 5 begun? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. It's anticipated that it will take five 8 days to complete that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And Lisa Mahle will testify as to what 11 has been found through the borings and what it means 12 to this application; is that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, in addition to that, we have been 15 advised, by legal counsel for the Board, and we have 16 looked at the regulations, that the DEP regulations 17 provide a waiver or a variance standard for a 18 variance from the requirements of the Steep Slope 19 Ordinance; is that correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And the language generally says that if 22 you can show economic hardship, and deal, of course, 23 with the stormwater runoff issues, you will be 24 entitled to a variance; is that correct? 25 A. Correct. 24 1 Q. At my request, I had asked you to 2 develop a plan which indicated the steep slope 3 coverage on the entire piece of property. Which I 4 don't think has been marked yet? 5 A. No, it has not. I don't know if we are 6 up to A-21. 7 MR. OURY: Tom, do you have the 8 transcript? I forgot where we left off. 9 (Whereupon, a discussion is held off the 10 record.) 11 MR. OURY: I know we didn't get to A-25, 12 so can we start at A-25? Or you want to start at A-1 13 with today's date? 14 MR. CALVANICO: Don't do A-1. 15 MR. OURY: Can I mark this as A-25? I 16 don't think we got to A-25 last time. For the court 17 reporter, may we mark this, Ms. Reporter, as A-25? 18 (Exhibit so marked.) 19 How do you want to name this, Calisto? 20 THE WITNESS: It's called "Restrictive 21 Development." That's what we named this plan. 22 MR. OURY: Restrictive Development Plan. 23 What's the date? 24 THE WITNESS: 6/17/09. That's today. 25 (Exhibit so marked.) 25 1 This is A-25. 2 MR. OURY: We have handed out to the 3 Board, I guess smaller versions of that plan. 4 MR. OURY: 5 Q. Can you explain to the Board what A-25 6 is intended to be? 7 A. Yes. A-25 shows the entire site and the 8 area shown in green are the areas that are steep 9 slopes, that's slopes over 20 percent. 10 Q. Now, this property is approximately 11 three and a half acres; is that correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And the property was bought, was an 14 amalgamation of three different purchases; am I 15 correct about that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. However, it is clear that all of the 18 properties were purchased prior to the enactment of 19 the County's ordinance; is that correct? 20 A. Yes, they were. 21 Q. Can you explain what we have on the 22 board there? 23 A. Looking at A-25, the area in green is 24 the steep slope. The area in gray are the non-steep 25 slopes. Really what's in gray is pretty flat. 26 1 And I also show a potential development 2 on this site without disturbing the steep slopes. 3 Q. Let me just ask you this question. I 4 had asked you, in developing this plan, to show us 5 the envelope of that which is buildable, and pursuant 6 to the local ordinance, what's the maximum retail 7 space we can get on it; is that correct? 8 A. Oh, on the buildable area, the 9 non-slope? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Yes, we did. You did. 12 Q. That building, that you've developed, is 13 in pink or light red? 14 A. Pink. 15 Q. Whatever. Go on with the board, please. 16 A. I just want to remind the Board that 17 this piece here, which is the existing Lot 10 on the 18 site, previously contained two buildings. It was the 19 Hoffman Beverage building there. So that area is 20 flat and that's the only area that's developed. 21 So I show here a 5,800 square foot 22 retail building with the required number of parking 23 spaces. And that's what I could put on this 24 property. 25 Q. Now, in consultation with the client and 27 1 the attorney who represented the client, Mr. 2 Basralian, at the time of these purchases, can you 3 tell the Board what the total investment was for the 4 purchase of these three parcels? 5 A. Yes. And I was there when it happened, 6 so I knew these numbers, it's not like I had to ask 7 them. 8 The total investment of the land cost is 9 5.8 million for the three parcels. And they have had 10 carrying costs of over $2 million which brings the 11 total investment to date up to $8 million. 12 Q. Now, approximately half of that property 13 was purchased from North Bergen; is that correct? 14 A. I would say more like 80 percent of the 15 property was purchased from North Bergen. 16 Q. That was the purchase at the public 17 auction that was referred to previously by 18 Mr. Chewkaskie? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And that was done at a public auction? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And do you know what that purchase price 23 was? 24 A. Well, the large piece on the north where 25 the Walgreens is going, that auction price was 3.5 28 1 million. 2 Q. Now, in order to develop -- strike that. 3 As a site engineer and someone who 4 oversees construction on a regular basis, you're 5 familiar with the cost of constructing a one-story 6 retail building in North Bergen? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What would the cost be of developing, 9 building a 5,800 square foot retail building in North 10 Bergen? 11 A. That building and the parking would be 12 one and a half million dollars. 13 Q. So, in order to get to a site, which 14 would be developable without steep slope variances, 15 the investment would be eight million, plus the 16 million and a half, and whatever carrying charges 17 there are going forward between now and whenever it 18 was rented; is that correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Close to $10 million? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You've consulted with the client, have 23 you not, with regard to what the average rents are? 24 A. Yes, I'm somewhat familiar with that. 25 Q. And you are familiar with that having 29 1 done other projects in town? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And what is that? 4 A. Rent for retail building in this area 5 would be $25 per square foot on an annual basis. 6 Q. Based upon 5,800 square feet, that would 7 be about $145,000? 8 A. Yes, exactly. 9 Q. Have you discussed with the client 10 whether or not an income of $145,000, from which you 11 would have to pay real estate taxes, insurance and 12 things of that nature, would be a loss to them or 13 would they make money on it? 14 A. A hundred forty-five thousand wouldn't 15 begin to cover the mortgage. 16 Q. It would be a negative with that kind of 17 investment; is that correct? 18 A. Right, exactly. 19 Q. Lisa Mahle, who is the geotechnical 20 expert, you released the facts with regard to the 21 steep slope analysis and what's intended to be done, 22 however, in your experience as a city engineer, 23 you've done a lot of work, I understand, in North 24 Bergen and in Hudson County; is that correct? 25 A. Yes. 30 1 Q. And you've done work on other -- in 2 other areas of the state where there are, in fact, 3 steep slopes; is that correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is it more usual than not, when someone 6 makes an application to a board, that the issue of 7 stability, of drilling to find out what the stability 8 might be, comes after or before the approval by the 9 Board? 10 A. I'm going to say in the cases that I can 11 remember, usually minor stability questions like just 12 erosion control might happen during the process, but 13 more complicated issues, such as retaining wall 14 designs, always happen after approval, post-approval. 15 Q. And in order for that to occur, the 16 Board and the engineers would have continuing 17 jurisdiction over that; is that correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And it was always your intention, as the 20 engineer for this project, which was discussed before 21 the local planning board, that there would be 22 engineering measures taken to address the stability 23 and the slope issues; is that correct? 24 A. Yes. Even at that time, a preliminary 25 study had been done and measures had -- stability 31 1 measures had been introduced at the North Bergen 2 Planning Board session, knowing full well that that 3 would have to be developed further. 4 Q. And those measures include netting, 5 bolting of the rocks? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Any other engineering measures that you 8 could think of? 9 A. Well, there would be some retaining 10 walls and other soil slope stabilization measures 11 that we would introduce. 12 Q. And I have made you aware of a report, 13 by PMK, which is an engineering firm; is that 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. OURY: And that report -- I want to 17 hand out copies. I don't think everybody has it. 18 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Madam Chairman, 19 while he's distributing that, could this be turned 20 around so that the general public can just see this 21 exhibit that's here and we can see where the green is 22 and the grade is and all that? Please? 23 MR. OURY: I need the Board to see it 24 because they are voting on it. Do you have any extra 25 copies of the handout, Calisto? 32 1 THE WITNESS: I have one extra. 2 MR. OURY: Why don't you give it to the 3 young lady so she can pass it to the audience. Once 4 we're done with the Board I'll pass it out to 5 everybody in the audience. Unless there's another 6 location you wanted to set up. Problem is, if they 7 see it, you can't. 8 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: I know that. 9 Thank you. 10 MR. OURY: 11 Q. There was a report entitled Report 12 Palisade Slope Stability Study, Hudson County, New 13 Jersey, prepared by PMK Group, submitted to the 14 Hudson County Division of Engineering. It's dated 15 September 3rd, 2008 and revised February 3rd, 2009. 16 Are you familiar with that report? 17 A. Yes, I did read it a while ago. 18 MR. OURY: I don't think this report was 19 marked. Can I make this as 26? You want to mark it 20 for her, please? 21 (Exhibit so marked.) 22 Q. That report, and I don't intend to go 23 through the whole thing with you, but on Page 3, 24 entitled Background, can you read the first sentence 25 so the Board is aware of why that report was 33 1 prepared? 2 A. I guess that's really Page 4. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. This report was prepared by PMK Group in 5 response to a request by the County of Hudson for an 6 analysis and investigation into the nature and 7 potential risks that may be associated with the 8 Palisades on a countywide basis. 9 Q. Now, it's your understanding that this 10 report was not in fact prepared for this particular 11 project but was requested by the County for the 12 overall development of sites that are on the 13 Palisades; is that correct? 14 A. That's my understanding, yes. 15 Q. And in this report, there's probably 15 16 or 20 different locations, starting in North Bergen, 17 at the Edgewater border, and going down straight 18 through to Jersey City, with specific areas; is that 19 correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And is it fair to say that this report 22 concludes, on each of those sites, that with the 23 appropriate engineering fix, so to speak, and they 24 name what those could be, netting, rock bolting, 25 things of that nature, that all of these properties 34 1 can be developed? 2 A. The purpose of this report was to come 3 up with ways to secure the slope, bolting and netting 4 and that sort of thing, yes. 5 Q. Was this particular piece of property -- 6 strike that. 7 This report starts in North Bergen near 8 the Edgewater border with the Churchill property; is 9 that correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Second property, it denotes Bergen 12 Ridge; is that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Which is the property just to the south 15 of Churchill; is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And the next property they talk about is 18 "Suicide Bridge" which is actually above on Boulevard 19 East? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Our property is not under "Suicide 22 Bridge"; is that correct? 23 A. No, we're south of that. 24 Q. We're south of that? 25 A. Yes. 35 1 Q. Okay. It skips over our property, this 2 report, and goes to another property in North Bergen 3 that's adjacent to the sewer treatment plant? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And then goes down into Jersey City? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Is it fair to say that your suggestions 8 with regard to -- from an engineering standpoint, 9 with regard to stabilizing the cliffs, removing the 10 material that we have to remove, is basically the 11 same as the conclusions reached by PMK, in that it 12 can be done with the appropriate engineering fixes? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And is it your understanding that once 15 we receive the results, the final results of the 16 drilling, which will be hole #2, we'll be able to 17 design a plan for stability which will comport with 18 the standards that we need to meet from a safety 19 standpoint? 20 Is that correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And Lisa Mahle will get into more detail 23 on that, is that right, because she's the 24 geotechnical person? 25 A. Yes. 36 1 Q. I didn't ask you this question, to 2 digress. With regard to stormwater, you've designed 3 the detention system for this property? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Can you explain, to the Board and to 6 Mr. Curley, where the water goes when the water goes 7 into the detention basin? 8 A. Well, we have several detention systems, 9 one for each of the proposed buildings. The water -- 10 what can, can percolate into the ground, then the 11 rest of the water would go out into River Road and 12 into the drainage system. 13 Q. Which is where all of it goes now? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And the water that goes into the 16 detention system, slowly percolates into the ground; 17 is that correct? 18 A. We allow it to. Where there's rock, 19 obviously the percolation is going to be much slower, 20 if not at all, but it's not all rock throughout the 21 site. 22 Q. So it's not that a hundred percent of 23 the retained water goes into the storm sewer system, 24 but a portion of it only? 25 A. Yes. A good portion of it, yes. 37 1 Q. And you have had an opportunity to 2 review the NJPDES permit. Just tell us what that is. 3 A. Well, there was a statewide permit for 4 drainage facilities from municipalities or, you know, 5 government agencies, roads and that sort of thing. 6 Q. And what does that permit allow the 7 counties to do? 8 A. Well, it allows -- it allows existing 9 discharge, it allows new discharges. There are 10 certain things it doesn't allow, like discharges from 11 industrial plants. Without going through a permit 12 process. 13 Q. And this permit, NJPDES permit, is not 14 unique to Hudson County; is that correct? 15 A. It's a statewide permit. 16 Q. Statewide permit. Is there anything, 17 that you're aware of, with regard to this property, 18 which would in any way put in jeopardy the NJPDES 19 permit that was obtained by Hudson County? 20 A. No. 21 Q. The stormwater, the runoff is either 22 going to go into the detention system or the 23 collection system that's already in place? 24 A. It all goes into the detention basin. 25 Detention basin controls the rate at which water 38 1 leaves the property. This system is designed in 2 accordance with state regulations, so obviously it 3 meets the state requirements and shouldn't jeopardize 4 the discharge, the Stormwater Discharge Permit. 5 Q. The second permit you reviewed, I 6 understand is a -- 7 A. Water Quality Management. 8 Q. Water Quality Management. What is that? 9 A. That dealt really with the sewerage 10 treatment plants. 11 Q. Is there anything -- the sewerage that 12 will emanate from this project, it's not a large 13 amount; is that correct? 14 A. No, it's not. 15 Q. But whatever it is, it will go into a 16 sanitary line to be treated at the North Bergen 17 plant? 18 A. Correct, right down the road. 19 Q. It will have no effect on the Water 20 Quality Management Permit, to the best of your 21 knowledge? 22 A. No, it will not have an impact. 23 MR. OURY: I have no other questions of 24 Mr. Bertin. 25 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I have a 39 1 question. 2 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Go ahead. 3 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I think you 4 were there and your professional was there. On the 5 meeting on January this year, the total number of 6 cubic feet that was going to be removed, and I got a 7 quote, is 700,000 cubic feet? 8 THE WITNESS: I heard that number. I 9 thought that I said somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 200,000. 11 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: No, you said 12 700,000 cubic feet. 13 THE WITNESS: That's why I refer to the 14 diagram. If I said that -- 15 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: And your 16 professional was there with you. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, we also submitted a 18 document that said 300,000. It was -- the tabulation 19 was there. The Board had it at that time. 20 MR. OURY: Here's what happened: Our 21 application provided for 300-plus-thousand cubic 22 yards of material. That's what the application had 23 on it. Apparently, from what I gather, at that 24 meeting someone threw out the number of 700,000 cubic 25 yards. 40 1 When they did the recalculations, within 2 the last 30 days, the real number is 110,000, but 3 before I put it out and sent it to the County, Luma 4 Oweis, who's the independent engineer from North 5 Bergen, checked that number and of course your own 6 engineering people can check the number too. 7 So our position today is that it's 8 110,000 cubic yards. 9 THE WITNESS: Hundred five. 10 MR. OURY: Hundred five, excuse me. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm not going to make that 12 mistake. 13 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Chairwoman. Can 14 you discuss the issue with the security of the road 15 that goes along on the top of the property? 16 THE WITNESS: Boulevard East? 17 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ. Yes. 18 THE WITNESS: What specifically? 19 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: There were issues 20 with the road when the construction was begun. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. In broad terms, 22 Boulevard East is shown at the top of the page. And 23 in front of Boulevard East is a park, it's a 24 municipal park, and then the construction happens in 25 front of that. The dark brown lines that go through 41 1 the green there at the top are the shear cliff faces 2 that exist. And you could see our construction 3 starts in front or on the east side of those shear 4 cliff faces. 5 So all of that material is not -- none 6 of that is going to be touched. And the current 7 boring being done is up in that park to -- it's going 8 to be 180 feet of rock quarrying, to test the -- 9 check the competency of the rock to make sure -- to 10 ensure that nothing will happen to it. But it's our 11 opinion that this -- well, let other people say what 12 the opinion is. 13 MR. OURY: The issue that you raised 14 with regard to that, to my knowledge, was "Suicide 15 Bridge" and the integrity of "Suicide Bridge." If 16 you have gone under there, there are some -- not 17 trestles but pillars when it was built. 18 The County's engineer, PMK at the time, 19 opined that there were -- that it could be checked, 20 if there's a problem, by the County. You could look 21 at the report, it's in evidence. 22 Apparently nothing has been done by the 23 County because I understand, today, Boulevard East 24 was being paved. So I would assume that if the 25 structural integrity of that bridge was in jeopardy, 42 1 the County wouldn't be paving over it. 2 But in any event, I think the 3 misconception was that "Suicide Bridge" was above our 4 property. It is not, it's above the adjacent 5 property. Which is -- I don't know how old you are, 6 but it's the old Damon (phonetic) building where they 7 used to make shirts. That building is no longer 8 there. That's where the bridge is, not above our 9 property. 10 But in order to -- 11 THE WITNESS: There are photographs to 12 show that. 13 MR. OURY: In order to meet the 14 requirements of Ms. Oweis, we're actually doing the 15 drilling from on top, which is 40 feet more than we 16 intended to do, and it's going to probably take five 17 days, I understand. 18 Lisa Mahle will testify more 19 specifically with regard to that. But I think the 20 report, that I've introduced, would be reviewed 21 because I think it specifically talks about 22 properties on either side of us but not our property. 23 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: There was an 24 explanation about permits, NJPDES permits. 25 MR. OURY: It's an issue of whether or 43 1 not anything we do would in any way jeopardize the 2 Hudson County NJPDES permit. And I had Mr. Bertin, 3 who does some of that work, look at the permit and 4 it's our position that it's not going to have any 5 effect on the NJPDES permit. 6 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Do we have 7 somebody from the County? 8 THE WITNESS: I asked that question, 9 that someone from the County could respond to that 10 who knows about it. You have an engineer that works 11 this. 12 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Can I -- does 13 that affect us, those permits? 14 MR. OURY: You're asking me? 15 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I'm asking 16 Tom. 17 MR. CALVANICO: We don't know. We can 18 make it a condition that any impact to the County's 19 NJPDES permit is not -- 20 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: I can't hear 21 the gentleman. 22 MR. CALVANICO: -- is the responsibility 23 of the applicant. We don't know. 24 MR. OURY: I think that what I would 25 suggest, and I don't have a problem having -- I don't 44 1 think Medina worked on the NJPDES permit. It was 2 another engineering firm. 3 So probably, if the Board votes on this 4 tonight and if it's approved, that somebody -- and 5 I'll have Mr. Bertin speak with that engineer who 6 made the application for the NJPDES permit to see 7 whether or not it would have an effect. 8 Based upon what we know, it will not. 9 This is no different than any other application in 10 Hudson County. There's stormwater runoff that's 11 being handled in an engineering fashion. Sewerage 12 that comes out of three retail buildings is nominal. 13 It's not like it's a residential building. There's 14 really nothing else that would affect the NJPDES 15 permit. 16 THE WITNESS: The stormwater -- I mean 17 the sanitary is another permit. But just to get the 18 right name, it's the New Jersey Pollutant Discharge 19 Elimination System, NJPDES. 20 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Counsel, a 21 question; are you seeking a waiver for that State -- 22 what was it, the State -- 23 MR. OURY: We're seeking a waiver for 24 the application of the Steep Slope Ordinance, which 25 is modelled after the DEP regulations. I think that 45 1 either Mr. Marks or one of your attorneys will 2 explain. I think that DEP -- it is the position of 3 the County that DEP has required this ordinance to be 4 passed. The DEP regulations have in it, a standard 5 for a variance to be granted by the local, meaning 6 the County, planning board. And that's what we're 7 seeking. 8 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: But does it 9 go through the State? 10 MR. OURY: No. 11 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Does it go 12 through the County? 13 MR. OURY: Yes, you are -- yes, you are 14 the enforcing agency so to speak. 15 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Madam Chair. 16 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Do you actually 18 have that statute? 19 MR. OURY: Yes, it's a New Jersey 20 statute. I can't find it but it's here. 21 He has it. 22 MR. CALVANICO: Madam Chair, let me just 23 clarify for a minute. 24 There are two separate regulations; 25 State passed a regulation and then the County passed 46 1 an ordinance. In the Land Development Regulations, 2 that mirrors, to a large extent, the State 3 regulations. 4 The exception section is somewhat 5 different. The exception section to the State 6 regulation refers specifically to economic hardship. 7 The County's exception section does not specifically 8 refer to that, it just says -- uses more general 9 language about a hardship. That's in the Land 10 Development Regulations. I just wanted to make that 11 clear so that we understand. 12 We're proceeding under the County's 13 regulation tonight, not the State. 14 MR. OURY: Mr. Calvanico, it's my 15 understanding that, based upon the opinion letter, 16 that you received, that the Planning Board will be 17 applying the state regulation standard. That's my 18 understanding. That's my understanding and that's 19 what was recommended. 20 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I don't know 21 which one is -- which one has the most enforcement. 22 MR. OURY: I think either Mr. Calvanico 23 or Mr. Curley should advise you on that, but my 24 position is that there was an opinion letter, rather 25 lengthy one, prepared by Wilentz, Goldman & Spitzer, 47 1 for the County on this application. In that opinion 2 letter, Mr. Tripp provides that the DEP regulations, 3 that is the waiver portion of it, should be applied 4 to this application. 5 The ordinance, when it was passed, 6 should have had that in it. Mr. Calvanico and I, 7 five months ago now, were faced with a dilemma which 8 was your ordinance on steep slopes had no provision 9 for variance. We found afterwards, that your general 10 ordinance does have a provision for it. You guys 11 give waivers and variances almost all the time, based 12 upon the appropriate proofs. 13 On steep slopes it's been the opinion of 14 the -- I think, of the County, that the DEP 15 regulations apply which gives us the right to ask for 16 an economic hardship. Which is what Mr. Bertin 17 testified to previously. 18 And the reason it became important that 19 you know this, we purchased the properties before the 20 ordinance and I believe the regulations were in 21 effect. 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 23 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Yes, 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: How many jobs this 48 1 property is going to create? 2 MR. OURY: There was testimony at the 3 planning board and I'm -- my recollection, it's a 4 Walgreens, a Starbucks and a bank, so you're probably 5 looking at 50, 75 jobs. All told. Maybe more. 6 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Fifty? 7 MR. OURY: Fifty to a hundred jobs, you 8 know, total employment. 9 THE WITNESS: Walgreens has several 10 shifts. 11 MR. OURY: Right. It's not a 24 12 operation, though, pursuant to the resolution. We 13 have to close, I think 10 or 11 at night, something 14 like that. 15 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: You'll be paying 16 also taxes and County taxes and to the Open Space 17 Fund? 18 MR. OURY: Unfortunately, yes. 19 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Commissioner 20 Arencibia. 21 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: I just wanted 22 to ask about the 105,000 cubic yards to be excavated. 23 How much is that in soil and rock? 24 THE WITNESS: Current estimate, based on 25 the test pit, 20,000 is in soil, the 85,000 cubic 49 1 yards would be rock. 2 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: How much of 3 that excavation in height from the base? 4 THE WITNESS: About a hundred feet. 5 From, say, the middle of the Walgreens parking lot to 6 the top of the excavation is about a hundred feet. 7 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: The top of that 8 is the rock? 9 THE WITNESS: Well, then above that is 10 the currently exposed cliff. 11 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Right. How 12 much -- 13 THE WITNESS: And Lisa will have 14 photographs to show you that. 15 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: How much 16 further in height is that at the cliff from the top 17 of your excavation? 18 THE WITNESS: Another 80 feet. Yes, 19 80 feet. So that exposed cliff, that you see now, is 20 80 feet high. 21 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Right. So 22 that's an additional 80 feet from the hundred feet? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, from -- yes, from 24 the park, say, down to the pavement of Walgreens, 25 yes. 50 1 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Altogether 2 about 180 feet? 3 THE WITNESS: At that point, let's see, 4 the park is about -- yes, 180 feet. There's a grade 5 difference. 6 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: How much has 7 been removed so far? 8 THE WITNESS: Nothing has been removed 9 from the site yet. There's been activity at the 10 bottom to begin the erosion control. They did start 11 putting in the roads, you know, for excavation, but 12 the other -- the work that's been done is to create 13 roads to get the drill rigs up into the hillside so 14 they can do their work. That's been the work that's 15 been done in the last couple of months. 16 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Madam Chair. 17 That's the remediation being done right 18 now, right? 19 THE WITNESS: Well, what we're doing is 20 checking the rock so that rather than guesstimate as 21 we go forward, we have a better understanding of what 22 the rock is and what kind of measures we have to 23 take. It's typically bolting or -- well, in this 24 case we're looking at the bolting requirements 25 because we want to see how competent the rock is away 51 1 from the face. 2 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Madam Chair. 3 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Yes, 4 Mr. Arencibia. 5 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: I wanted to 6 clarify that PMK report. That was a separate study 7 that the County undertook. It actually got started 8 before this project came to the Board and it was a 9 general countywide project along the Palisades to 10 evaluate the retaining walls and the walls under the 11 County's jurisdiction. And it did identify, as I 12 recall, this area, as steep slope, and some County 13 measures to offset the slides that occasionally 14 happen. As I recall, the proposal from PMK was to 15 install gabion walls. 16 THE WITNESS: They also had bolting and 17 Shotcrete in there, as well, in some of them. 18 MR. OURY: In fact, they even had cost 19 estimates on some of these locations. 20 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: That's right. 21 MR. OURY: I thought I made myself 22 clear. This report, PMK, was not done for this 23 particular application, I know that. It was 24 fortuitous that it was done, but it was not -- our 25 property was not one of the properties that was 52 1 called out in this report. "Suicide Bridge" 2 property, to our north, and then another property to 3 our south, was called out particularly. 4 Now, why that was, I don't know, but 5 apparently they didn't think it was a problem at that 6 location for Boulevard East. 7 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Well, the 8 report just looked at the areas that were identified 9 previously to them by our office? 10 MR. OURY: No, I don't think so. I 11 think their job -- my understanding, and that's why 12 maybe you'll have to read that, my understanding is 13 they were told to do a survey from North Bergen down 14 into Jersey City. And then they then called out each 15 of the properties they thought might be an issue. 16 In fact, if you just give me a minute -- 17 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: I know exactly 18 what they had to do because I'm the one who put the 19 RFP together for them. I gave them a list of 20 locations to evaluate. 21 THE WITNESS: It didn't preclude them 22 from evaluating other locations if they felt that it 23 was needed. 24 MR. OURY: And what they say, on Page 32 25 of the report, with regard to "Suicide Bridge": "Due 53 1 to the relatively unique and complex nature of the 2 design, we recommend a thorough investigation of the 3 original design and changes in site conditions 4 following construction to verify that additional rock 5 bolts in concrete would not be required." 6 Now, I don't know if the County took it 7 upon itself to do anything, but my point is that it's 8 recommended that there's engineering fixes for any of 9 these problems. If there's a problem, they are saying 10 you might have to have a plan for Shotcrete and rock 11 walls. 12 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: That's correct. 13 MR. OURY: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: And this was 15 actually a planning study for our office to determine 16 what areas need most attention for the County. 17 MR. OURY: On the other page, if you are 18 going to look at it, is Page 19 where they talk about 19 the "Suicide Bridge" area where they make 20 recommendations. In fact, it says an estimated 21 construction cost on the order of 140,000 was 22 developed for the installation of the rock walls and 23 Shotcrete. 24 They made recommendations at that time. 25 It might be cheaper now with the cost of 54 1 construction. 2 All we're saying is that all of these 3 issues -- if there's an issue with regard to 4 stability, which we don't think there is, but if 5 there is, there's an engineering fix that the County 6 will tell us has to be done, that's all. 7 THE WITNESS: Or the town. 8 MR. OURY: Or the town. I guess there 9 is overlapping jurisdiction and they will have to 10 choose it out as to who has jurisdiction. 11 If there are no other questions for 12 Mr. Bertin, I'd like to put Lisa Mahle on. 13 Mr. Bertin will remain for either cross-examination 14 by the Board Attorney or people in the audience. 15 MR. CALVANICO: State your name, spell 16 your last name. 17 THE WITNESS: Lisa Mahle-Greco. 18 M-A-H-L-E. G-R-E-C-O. 19 L I S A M A H L E - G R E C O, having 20 been duly sworn, testifies as follows: 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. OURY: 22 Q. Now, Ms. Mahle, what is your area of 23 expertise? 24 A. Geotechnical engineering. 25 Q. And you were educated where? 55 1 A. Drexel University. 2 Q. And do you have any postgraduate 3 degrees? 4 A. Yeah, I graduated Manhattan College with 5 a Master's in geotechnical engineering. 6 Q. Are there any other educational degrees 7 that you have with regard to engineering, 8 geotechnical engineering? 9 A. I have a P.E. license in the State of 10 New Jersey. 11 Q. How long have you been practicing 12 geotechnical engineering? 13 A. About 15 years. 14 Q. And it's my understanding that Johnson 15 Soils is a family-owned operation? 16 A. It was, yes, until 2005. 17 Q. And your dad was the principal? 18 A. Previously, yes. 19 Q. And you have been working for Johnson 20 Soils with your father for 15 years? 21 A. I started with my dad in 1998. 22 MR. OURY: I would offer Ms. Mahle as 23 expert in the area of geotechnical engineering. 24 Q. Now, Ms. Mahle, you were retained by our 25 client not only to appear here but to appear before 56 1 the local planning board; is that correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you gave certain testimony with 4 regard to what we'll call the Palisades, and the 5 concern of residents and the Board with regard to 6 removal of materials that would be necessitated by 7 approval of our project; is that correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. To your right you have a photograph, I 10 see. And that was a photograph that you used before 11 the local board? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. OURY: Correct. We'll mark that 14 photograph as A-27, I guess we're up to? 15 (Exhibit so marked.) 16 Q. Can you tell the Board what that 17 photograph depicts? 18 A. This is a photo of a site, I think it's 19 about in winter of 2008. You can see, there was 20 cleared-away debris so you can see some of the 21 exposed rock. 22 This is the exposed cliff face. In the 23 front of the picture are existing boulders and 24 cobbles that probably have fallen off the cliff face 25 over the last thousands of years, hundreds of years, 57 1 we don't know exactly. 2 This is the park above, this little 3 stonewall, you can see part of the park and the 4 corner of Boulevard East. 5 Q. Now, before the local planning board you 6 gave what was fairly interesting history of the 7 Palisades. Could you give the condensed version to 8 the Board, what we're talking about? 9 A. The existing area is consistent of 10 Palisade diabase underlain by an amygdaloid formation 11 which consists of sandstone and other rocks, possibly 12 quartzite have been found in the area. 13 There's also, on the opposite side of 14 North Bergen, there's another formation which is a 15 different color sandstone that's underlain. The 16 existing diabase, thousands of years ago was about 17 two to three times the height that it is today. It 18 has eroded over time, down to the present height. 19 Q. Now, the material that we're intending 20 to remove, is what type of material? 21 A. The material is the previous talus slope 22 which was underneath the ancient Hudson River river 23 gorge, consisting of overburden, which is soil and 24 rock mixed together, with rock of possibly diabase, 25 sandstone and quartzite underneath. 58 1 Q. Generally speaking, the material, that 2 we're contemplating removing, is material that has 3 fallen off the face of the Palisades; is that 4 correct? 5 A. Partially, yes. 6 Q. And by removing this material, and I'll 7 get to the calculations, 105,000 cubic yards, we'll 8 be able to better see the rock face; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, directly to the north of this 11 property is another piece of property, which we 12 talked about, "Suicide Bridge"? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. It appears that if you look at the 15 rockface, it goes from River Road right up to 16 Boulevard East? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. It appears as though this material that 19 we're intending to remove for this application was 20 also on the site next door, at some point in time, 21 and was cleared out; is that correct? 22 A. It appears so. 23 Q. Once it's removed, you will then be able 24 to see the true rockface of the Palisades? 25 A. Yes. 59 1 Q. Let's get to the issue that 2 Mr. Fitzgibbons talked about. At some point in time, 3 over the last three months, we found that there was a 4 confusion with regard to the amount of material to be 5 removed; is that correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you, yourself, did check the 8 calculations that were done by Mr. Bertin's office? 9 A. I checked them by hand, yes. 10 Q. By hand, okay. What did you find? 11 A. My estimated hand calculations was 110. 12 So I went back to him, the person that actually did 13 it, and I said you got to look at this again, 14 something is not right, I'm way off. And he came 15 back again and then I started looking and I realized 16 that he used the wrong units, he multiplied yards by 17 feet. 18 Q. So once you found that the 19 multiplication -- I think it was 330,000 cubic yards; 20 is that correct? 21 A. Somewhere in that range, yes. 22 Q. Once you found that there had been a 23 miscalculation, you sent that material to Ms. Oweis, 24 is that correct, to double-check so to speak? 25 A. Yes, I did send all the information to 60 1 Ms. Oweis so she could do her own calculations to 2 confirm or deny. 3 Q. Did she, in fact, do that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did she confirm that your number is 6 correct, that is the 105,000 cubic yards? 7 A. Yes, she was in the same range. 8 Q. Since September 18th, there has been 9 some activity with regard to the issue of stability 10 of the slopes; is that correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Could you explain to the Board what has 13 occurred? 14 A. As Mr. Bertin has said, we have been 15 working with Ms. Oweis and we developed a scope of 16 work for additional borings and test pits to be done 17 to give us a more thorough analysis of the existing 18 slope and overburden that is there. 19 Once we agreed on a scope of work, we 20 began drilling. There was one boring completed -- 21 Q. Let me stop you for a second, okay? The 22 scope of work that was developed, between yourself 23 and Ms. Oweis, consisted of two holes, test pits; is 24 that correct? 25 A. Two borings. 61 1 Q. Two borings, that were required? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. The purpose of those borings was to 4 determine what? 5 A. To determine the depth of overburden, 6 depth of each type of rock, the type of rock in each 7 area, the dips and stripes of the fractures and 8 joints that are in each area, how many fractures and 9 joints percent recovery and RQD, which is the Rock 10 Quality Designator. 11 Q. When you find out all that information, 12 what does it tell you? 13 A. It tells you how competent the rock is, 14 how solid it is. Many fractures could or could not, 15 depending on when you do a stability analysis, help 16 or not help the stability. Adding rock bolts will 17 help with the stability. 18 Q. You used this information or it was 19 intended that you would use this information to come 20 up with a plan to deal with the slope issue after the 21 removal of the material, that is whether a gabion 22 wall, whether I use Shotcrete or whether I use 23 bolting? 24 A. Yeah. You don't remove the whole thing 25 at once though, you do it a little bit at a time. 62 1 Q. You did one drill. And how deep did you 2 go? 3 A. The first boring was 83 feet. 4 Q. Then there was a decision made to do a 5 second drilling; is that correct? 6 A. Yes, we had to build another partial 7 road to the area where it was. We started drilling 8 in that area -- 9 Q. Let's just describe for the Board, that 10 area would be sort of on the top of the slope; is 11 that correct? 12 A. It ended up being a little bit in front 13 of the proposed slope, just unable to access. 14 Q. How many feet above River Road? 15 A. Eighty-seven. 16 Q. And in order to get the rig and the 17 material and the people up there, you had to build a 18 road; that's why we had to build that little road? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. That was done. When was that done? 21 About a month ago? 22 A. Probably, yeah, somewhere around there. 23 Q. What happened then? 24 A. We got the drill rig up to the site. As 25 existing large boulders, that are found in the 63 1 overburden there, were very large, probably in the 2 vicinity of a refrigerator or larger. We got the 3 drill rig in position. It was a couple Fridays ago 4 when it was torrential rain, if anyone remembers. We 5 drove all day in the rain. We got 30 feet down, 6 pretty good drilling, rock coring for one day, still 7 in the diabase. We came back Saturday and the drill 8 rig had shifted due to the saturating of the existing 9 soils. 10 Also happening at the time was the 11 existing overburden started to come down on us and it 12 became very dangerous to be in that position. The 13 drill rig does have a little vibration to it when it 14 drills and it would be very dangerous to be standing 15 there. 16 Q. So a decision was made, by the driller 17 and yourself, to cease the drilling at that location, 18 and it's my understanding that you then called 19 Ms. Oweis, I guess on that Monday? 20 A. No, I called her that day. 21 Q. That day, okay. 22 A. I didn't know she was going to answer 23 the phone, but she did. 24 Q. And I understand that a representative 25 of her firm showed up on the site on Monday? 64 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And the recommendation was to go on top 3 of the Palisades, which is on Boulevard East in that 4 park, and drill down, which adds another how many 5 feet? 6 A. Approximately 80. 7 Q. Which is an additional expense to the 8 applicant? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. But certainly something that was 11 reasonable, in your opinion, was it not? 12 A. Yes, all that information can help to 13 use to stabilize the existing exposed cliff face that 14 has to be bolted in some sections anyhow before we 15 even start to excavate the slope. 16 Q. And that drilling operation began 17 yesterday? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And they do approximately 30, 40 feet a 20 day? 21 A. Well, we got all set up yesterday. They 22 set the casing, which keeps the hole open in the 23 existing overburden so nothing falls in. We had to 24 set up the oriented core, which takes a little bit of 25 time. It's a very specialized piece of equipment. 65 1 There's only one driller that we could find in this 2 area that does that. There is a bunch out in Utah 3 and Arizona that do that, but there's only one 4 specific driller that we had to get. And that takes 5 a little bit of time to set up. It's a patented 6 method by this driller and we started coring today 7 around noon. 8 Q. And when do you expect that you will 9 complete that drilling operation? 10 A. My guess at this point is probably 11 Monday or Tuesday. 12 Q. Of this coming week? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So about a five-day operation? 15 A. Plus or minus. 16 Q. Once that is completed, the results of 17 the first drilling pit and this will be given to a 18 lab? 19 A. Myself, I'll be doing the analysis. 20 Q. You'll do an analysis which -- how long 21 will that take? 22 A. It will take probably a couple days to a 23 week. We have a computer program called "Phase2." 24 It calculates the slope stability and you put in all 25 the fractures, the type of rock, the strength of the 66 1 rock, and you can find out the safety factor of the 2 slope proposed. If that safety factor is 3 unacceptable, you actually can add bolts in this 4 program to figure out where the best bolting pattern 5 is as you recalculate the safety factor to find out 6 what the length of the bolt should be and where they 7 should be located. 8 Q. Once that report is prepared by 9 yourself, with all that information, it will be 10 shared with both the County Engineer and Oweis on 11 behalf of the municipality; is that correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And from that information you will then 14 be able to come up with a specific bolting plan or 15 stabilization plan as to what the length of the bolts 16 have to be, whether you Shotcrete, gable wall or what 17 methodology should be used from an engineering 18 standpoint; is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, normally that information would be 21 obtained after you start the job and you start 22 removing material; is that correct? 23 A. Well, we did have some information 24 first. This is just additional information to get a 25 more thorough perspective in the competency of the 67 1 rock. 2 Q. Is there information that you have 3 received, as a result of either the first drilling or 4 the little drilling that you've done from the second 5 drilling, or any information that you have been able 6 to gather on this location, this site, which leads 7 you to believe that the integrity of Boulevard East 8 will be negatively impacted by the development of our 9 site down on River Road? 10 A. Not with proper stabilization. 11 Q. It's always been intended that there 12 would be proper stabilization? 13 A. Definitely. 14 Q. You testified to the local planning 15 board to that effect; is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that would include what? 18 A. Setting up a specific bolting pattern. 19 There will be a specific section that has to have 20 netting due to the location of a high point that is 21 very close to the building. So that will have 22 netting and bolting. 23 There's also, at the bottom of the slope 24 there's a 12 foot by four foot, deep catchment area 25 that will, if anything did fall, would fall into that 68 1 area and there's a fence right behind the curb. 2 Q. Is there anything else that you need to 3 advise the Board with regard to your area of 4 expertise and the stabilization of the slope? 5 A. Any -- we did design, on the top of the 6 slope, a little catchment area for any water that 7 would come off the existing slope and go down the 8 side and into the drainage system. 9 Q. Which would be a plus? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And why would that be a plus? Because 12 now it's running down the side of the mountain into 13 River Road? 14 A. Otherwise it would go across our newly 15 excavated slope and possibly cause additional erosion 16 which would cause destabilization. 17 MR. OURY: I have no other questions of 18 the witness, at this time, and she'll remain for 19 cross-examination by anyone unless the Board has 20 questions now. 21 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Madam Chair, I 22 have a question. 23 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Commissioner 24 Holloway. 25 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: You were in 69 1 front of the local planning board for North Bergen? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Without getting 4 into any big details, but what kind of concerns did 5 they have? 6 THE WITNESS: Similar concerns. Boswell 7 Engineering, I don't know if McGrath is here, we 8 worked very closely with them and at that time they 9 would have been overseeing. This was before 10 Ms. Oweis came into the picture. When we had done 11 that, knowing that there would be the stabilization 12 ongoing and the water concern, any runoff from the 13 slope. 14 MR. OURY: Can I follow up on 15 Mr. Holloway's question, if you don't mind, sir? 16 MR. OURY: 17 Q. We would enter into a developer's 18 agreement with North Bergen after approval; is that 19 correct? 20 A. I believe so. 21 Q. And that developer's agreement would 22 require that North Bergen's engineer, whether 23 Mr. McGrath or Ms. Oweis, would be overseeing this 24 project as it moved forward, specifically with regard 25 to the stabilization and the safety of the roadway 70 1 above; is that correct? 2 A. Yes, as any typical development. 3 Q. You had specific discussions with 4 Mr. McGrath because the Board did raise some of these 5 issues prior to the approval of the project; is that 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is there any reason to believe that we 9 wouldn't work the same way with the County Road 10 Department, if they saw fit to do that, to give them 11 information and work out a plan that they would then 12 review? 13 A. No, no problem. I've worked with 14 engineers a lot. I work with Boswell in a bunch of 15 different towns, so it's not a problem. 16 Q. The point is that all of these projects, 17 at least in North Bergen, require developer's 18 agreements, and as you know, the developer has to pay 19 the fees for the engineers to oversee the project. 20 So it was always anticipated that either 21 Boswell or someone else would oversee this project, 22 as it moved forward, with regard to that issue and 23 other issues also. 24 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: For the record, 25 the Planning Board of North Bergen has approved this? 71 1 MR. OURY: Oh, yes. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I got a 5 question. What happens if you do all this work and 6 you say everything is safe and all of a sudden we get 7 a flood? 8 Now, just say that you get approval for 9 this and then two years later on, something happens? 10 THE WITNESS: You're saying -- 11 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: What's the 12 responsibility of the developer? In other words, if 13 something happens with the water, you're saying well, 14 we're going to ship the water -- water runs all over, 15 you know that. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: You can't 18 direct water any way you want to direct it, believe 19 me. Nature has its own theory, right? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: What happens 22 if we give you the okay, I don't know if you're going 23 to get the okay, but what happens if you get the okay 24 and two years later there's a massive mudslide or 25 something happens and something really seriously 72 1 happens? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, if something like 3 Floyd or a very heavy rainstorm, my analysis is going 4 to do a full hydrostatic -- 5 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: A 6 hundred-year rain. Ever see one of those? 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I did. 8 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: You know the 9 way that things are going today, I mean you had hail 10 the other day, you know, in the middle of June. I 11 mean, you know -- your three inches in Westwood. 12 THE WITNESS: Emerson too. 13 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: What we worry 14 about is protecting the County interest. Citizens 15 that get hurt or something like that. There was a 16 mudslide, I think it was in Bergen County, I don't 17 think it was Hudson. Right? 18 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Commissioner, I 19 would like to let her answer the question. 20 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: All right, go 21 ahead. 22 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Thank you. 23 THE WITNESS: On top of the existing 24 cliff face near the park, there's very little 25 overburden. There is approximately six inches to 73 1 maybe a foot and a half, three feet at some points. 2 Not very much overburden. Things that can be done 3 over there is put in additional ground cover if 4 needed. But that's -- right now that's in the town's 5 property. 6 On the -- there's a 12 foot area between 7 the existing cliff face and the proposed slope. If 8 we find there's a certain amount of overburden that 9 would become destabilized, we would add soil erosion 10 protection measures, either -- depending on what it 11 is and how much we actually find in certain areas. 12 The one area where we did one boring was 13 only six inches of topsoil, which is not very much, 14 and if we find more, we can do Shotcreting or other 15 stabilization methods to make sure that doesn't 16 happen. 17 MR. OURY: In addition to that, we're 18 going to be signing a developer's agreement which 19 will have a performance bond. As soon as the County 20 will have a developer's agreement for us, also where 21 there will be bonds put up, and a maintenance plan. 22 The design of this project is no 23 different than any project that you approve. There 24 will be a design that will be reviewed by your 25 professionals and before it gets built it will have 74 1 to be approved by your professionals. 2 Also, there's bonding that will be put 3 up to make sure we do the work and a maintenance bond 4 for -- I think it's two years afterward. 5 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Say this 7 application wasn't approved, this is a very dangerous 8 area right now. Is that correct? 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand your 10 question. 11 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Is this a very 12 dangerous area right now as it is? 13 THE WITNESS: As it is there, there's 14 certain areas that can be dangerous. There are, over 15 time, that things from the top still come down every 16 once in a while, just through rain and natural course 17 of action, that will be taken into account. We're 18 going to start at the top and stabilize the existing 19 cliff face first and then work our way down. 20 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Any flooding as of 21 now? 22 THE WITNESS: There's no flooding. 23 MR. OURY: No, what he's asking now, the 24 water now, where does it run to and from? 25 THE WITNESS: I've never seen any actual 75 1 water run from the face when we were there. 2 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: During the rainy 3 time you didn't see -- 4 THE WITNESS: Didn't see any coming off 5 the face of the existing cliff. 6 MR. OURY: 7 Q. Whatever rainwater hits the cliff, where 8 does it go? 9 A. I guess it's going into the soil right 10 now. 11 Q. It goes into River Road, comes down the 12 side of the cliff and some of it goes into River 13 Road? 14 A. Probably ponds at the bottom where they 15 have the berm. 16 Q. But that berm is part of our plan. That 17 berm wasn't there before; am I correct? 18 A. Not that I'm aware of. 19 Q. That berm was requested by us to be put 20 in by Soil Conservation? 21 A. I believe so. 22 Q. So I think the gentleman's question is, 23 if this area was not touched by us, and there was a 24 heavy rainstorm, the chances are water would have to 25 run off the face of the cliff, down and across River 76 1 Road. It has no other place to go? 2 A. It would probably go a little bit into 3 the soil and depending on how much rain. 4 Q. And our measures include creating a berm 5 to stop that, creating a catchment area for boulders, 6 and creating a detention basin so that on-site, a 7 great amount of this water will remain? 8 A. Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Are you creating 10 reuse cycle system, to recycle water? 11 MR. OURY: Calisto might be better on 12 that. There's a requirement, I think, for the 13 parking lot. Am I right, Calisto? 14 MR. BERTIN: Water reuse, it's the new 15 thing in LEED. We haven't designed that. We may 16 look into that but that's not part of the plan right 17 now. 18 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Would you concede 19 that as part of the project? 20 MR. BERTIN: Yes, Bank of America wants 21 their building to be a LEED building. That would be 22 part of the credits toward LEED. 23 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: The other buildings 24 are going to be LEED certified? 25 MR. OURY: Only Bank of America at the 77 1 moment. We went around and around at the local board 2 on this, but Bank of America has decided to do it. 3 We had Starbucks as a tenant. I don't know if we 4 still do because they are in a little bit of trouble. 5 Walgreens, I think that we have some treatment on the 6 roof but it's not actually green. 7 MR. BERTIN: No. 8 MR. OURY: North Bergen Zoning Ordinance 9 is concerned about looking down onto the roof and 10 Boulevard East, so we had to do some treatments on 11 the roof. But it's not LEED certified. Bank of 12 America is going to be? 13 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Bank of America is 14 the biggest building? 15 MR. OURY: Is Walgreens bigger? 16 MR. BERTIN: Walgreens is bigger. Bank 17 of America is the building in the middle when you 18 look at Building 20. 19 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Commissioner 20 Mehta. 21 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: By using all this 22 metallurgy, to stabilize the rock and stabilize the 23 Palisade, are you going to leave the certification of 24 the Palisade? Most of the environmental people and 25 people were concerned about the scenic beauty of the 78 1 Palisade. So is there going to be any difference in 2 that beautification of the Palisades? 3 THE WITNESS: No, the rock bolt, after 4 the initial installation, actually will rust over and 5 you'll barely see them. You're going to be down a 6 hundred-plus feet, you're not going to be able to see 7 the rock bolts. 8 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: So general public, 9 whoever is viewing right now, they will have the same 10 impact and they will see the same beauty of the 11 Palisades? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 MR. OURY: They will actually be able to 14 see the Palisades. We'll remove the dirt in front of 15 it. 16 THE WITNESS: Existing cliff face that's 17 there will remain. The trees are growing naturally 18 where they are. We'll have to remove some, just to 19 stabilize the area, but they will be put back. And 20 there are some methods where some plants grow in very 21 little soil, almost no water, that you can put there 22 and put basically almost on top of the rock and it 23 can grow like vines. 24 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Madam Chair, I 25 have a question. If you can answer this question. 79 1 If you can't, fine. But if you weren't planning to 2 do this project, how stable is this, these rocks? 3 THE WITNESS: Existing rockface has been 4 coming down a little by little. Some of the existing 5 -- let me show you one photo for instance. 6 (Pause.) 7 MR. OURY: Can we mark this as Exhibit 8 A-28? 9 (Exhibit so marked.) 10 THE WITNESS: This picture was taken 11 last August or June. You can see these large 12 boulders here and here (indicating.) You can see 13 some of the gray boulders; those are ones that have 14 fallen down off the existing cliff face. There's 15 larger ones that we have found, by building roads to 16 get up where we are proposing to excavate, which have 17 fallen down. There are a few up there that are 18 undermined. Basically they are hanging over open 19 space, they are partially on existing diabase and 20 partially hanging over. So it's like a cantilever. 21 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Do you happen to 22 know how far that is from River Road? 23 THE WITNESS: Right here, this was at 24 the bottom. This one was close to the bottom. Maybe 25 50 feet. River Road is to the right of the photo 80 1 (indicating.) 2 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I got a 3 question. That's natural erosion, isn't it? Is that 4 natural along -- 5 THE WITNESS: These boulders are natural 6 erosion, yes. 7 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: All along the 8 Palisades this is happening, right? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: That's Mother 11 Nature, right? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's happened over 13 thousands and millions of years. 14 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Yeah. If you 15 go all along the Palisades you're going to have 16 unstable rocks coming down. 17 THE WITNESS: It's what happens. The 18 rock starts to decompose, it's starting to turn back 19 to soil. In the joints, you can actually see little 20 pieces of soil. 21 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: This 22 formation of the Palisades is very rare, right; isn't 23 it? 24 THE WITNESS: The silt type of formation 25 that comes up from the bottom, and it actually came 81 1 over the sandstone, is unique to the Eastern 2 Seaboard. 3 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Is there only 4 maybe four places in the whole world? 5 THE WITNESS: I believe so. 6 (Applause.) 7 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Let me ask you one 8 question. If the stabilization, as planned now, this 9 actually -- will it protect more that cliff from the 10 erosion or no? The -- 11 MR. OURY: Will there be less erosion as 12 a result of the plan that you will develop? 13 THE WITNESS: Definitely, definitely. 14 Less rocks will continue to fall and there will be 15 less erosion. 16 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: You're saying that 17 this project will help to maintain that area of the 18 Palisades there and be less erosion? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, definitely. It won't 20 change the character, it would stay exactly as it is. 21 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Now, are you doing 22 landscaping of the whole project? Will you talk 23 about the landscaping? 24 MR. OURY: Calisto will have to do that. 25 Calisto, can you talk about the landscaping that's 82 1 been required by the Board? 2 MR. BERTIN: On Exhibit A-20 you'll see 3 areas of green, along River Road and around the 4 parking lot. Actually this plan has been changed 5 because the County now has a tree standard so we have 6 added more trees along the front. 7 If your question is about on top of the 8 cliff, we show areas of dark green. Lisa was 9 beginning to tell you that the area at the top of our 10 cut, from there to the existing slope, it ranges 11 15 feet or so, that will be reforested to the extent 12 that we can. 13 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: How many trees are 14 you planning to plant in there? 15 MR. BERTIN: We don't have a specific 16 number of trees to be put up there. But we'll try to 17 cover the whole thing with evergreens or deciduous 18 trees that can grow in the rock. There are certain 19 type of evergreen trees that do well in rock. 20 MR. OURY: How about along River Road? 21 The County requires a tree so many feet? 22 MR. BERTIN: Yes. 23 MR. OURY: How many trees, 24 approximately, along the frontage? 25 MR. BERTIN: Along River Road, 16, 17 83 1 trees along the River Road frontage. 2 MR. OURY: They would have to be of a 3 nature that they wouldn't impair access to and from 4 the driveway; is that correct? 5 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 6 MR. OURY: The other green areas around 7 the buildings are generally low shrubs and grass? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, foundation plantings. 9 MR. OURY: Foundation plantings. And 10 the Board -- 11 THE WITNESS: But also on the islands in 12 the parking lot there are some decorative trees. 13 MR. OURY: Didn't the local planning 14 board require some special type of monument sign that 15 we had to put up? 16 MR. BERTIN: Yes, the signs -- any sign 17 bases will incorporate rocks that we took off the 18 cliff face. I mean one thing about this, the 19 diabase, is that it's a great material for 20 construction and there's a lot of townhouses and a 21 lot of retaining walls, the older walls and older 22 structures throughout this area are built with this 23 stone. We're not going to use it on the buildings 24 but we're going to use it for other features. And we 25 specify it for other projects that we do around 84 1 Hudson County, we specify that they use rocks from 2 the cliff face. 3 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: How those trees 4 will help with the flooding issue because the -- 5 MR. BERTIN: Well, this site is 6 different than some other sites. Because on top of 7 it, we don't have development, we don't have 8 apartment buildings with big parking lots. We have a 9 park, but then just beyond the green area or the 10 undisturbed area is Boulevard East. 11 So any water that comes toward Boulevard 12 East gets trapped in Boulevard East and conveyed in 13 the drainage system. 14 If we had homes with roofs and gutters 15 and apartment buildings on top of this cliff, a lot 16 of that water would be coming off, down the hillside. 17 So that's a good thing in this 18 situation. And so the only water we're going to have 19 is the water that lands in the vegetated area and 20 comes down the hill. 21 But by putting vegetation, by putting 22 means of slope stabilization -- and I should explain 23 some of that. 24 Where we have steep soil slopes over the 25 rock, that's the overburden portion that Lisa was 85 1 talking about, we'll put in a variety of things to 2 reinforce the soil. It could be anything from a 3 netting that's pinned, a light netting that allows 4 ground cover and other kinds of light vegetation to 5 grow and the roots would then stabilize the soil. 6 There's other things that are more 7 structural in nature. There's a thing called a 8 GeoWeb which is actually like -- it's a honeycomb, 9 nine inches deep, that we'd actually place in the 10 soil, that would be on steeper slopes; we place that 11 in the soil, we pin that into the ground. 12 So even -- and then we plant it. We'd 13 have not only the root system but we'd have this web 14 of -- actually it's a plastic material hidden in the 15 ground, also stabilizing the soil. 16 So there's a lot of those things that 17 were in the report that was initially submitted on 18 the initial geotechnical study. That's how we would 19 try to control erosion coming down the hill. 20 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: How long do 21 those nets last? 22 MR. BERTIN: The GeoWeb lasts forever 23 because it's made of high density polyethylene 24 material. 25 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: The other nets, 86 1 some of them are just there just for a growing season 2 to make sure that the plants stabilize. We've had 3 rain for two weeks and -- 4 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Are these nets 5 the ones that actually stabilizes the rocks? 6 MR. BERTIN: No, the nets I'm talking 7 about would be on the soil. This is some kind of 8 matting with -- it's either strings or other type of 9 material that will disintegrate. 10 Now, over the rock there's another type 11 of net. It's actually -- 12 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Net metal. 13 MR. BERTIN: That's a woven material. 14 It's like a chain-link fence, similar. 15 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: How long does 16 that last? 17 MR. BERTIN: It should last forever. 18 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: You say 19 "should"? 20 MR. BERTIN: Yeah, because it's coated 21 in PVC coating so it will last a very, very, very 22 long time. 23 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Where are you 24 planning to put that netting? 25 MR. BERTIN: There's one area that Lisa 87 1 mentioned. One of our goals was to minimize the 2 obvious netting on the cliff. But there's an area on 3 the back -- behind the Walgreens, you could see 4 there's a cliff face that juts out. That cliff face 5 will be netted and the rock cut below it will be 6 netted. That has to be netted because the cliff is 7 just too close to the parking lot. 8 Lisa mentioned, you'll see around the 9 parking lot is an area where we show like a stone 10 trench. That is a trench that will catch rocks that 11 would naturally -- and these rocks may be anything 12 from a pebble to a baseball. Not something too big 13 because we'll stabilize it if we think we find 14 something like the size of a TV set. 15 That was put in, this catchment area was 16 put in so we would not have to put netting on the new 17 exposed rockface. And that took away a lot of the 18 parking lot. 19 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: What are you doing 20 to that netting to mix it with the rock all over? 21 MR. BERTIN: Yes, we said that we were 22 going to use brown or black PCV coated netting so it 23 would blend in with the rock. This rock becomes 24 brown over time. A brown net, you really would not 25 see it. 88 1 Netting also has another effect if that 2 vegetation will grow even on rocks. And any net we 3 put here could support vegetation, vines that are 4 growing from the bottom. If you go to Bergen Ridge, 5 you'll see they have netting and sometimes you can't 6 see it because it's all covered with vines. 7 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Excuse me, 8 netting, a metal netting will also break at one time. 9 Right along 280 you'll see where it breaks in centers 10 and then they repair it. 11 MR. BERTIN: That's correct. 12 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: So it does break. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, it could. It's 14 supposed to do the job so it's supposed to be strong 15 enough. 16 But, no, Mr. Oury mentioned earlier 17 about a maintenance bond. Not only is there a 18 maintenance bond, North Bergen has a provision that 19 this has to be inspected every year, as other 20 projects do, so they are supposed to be inspected 21 annually by someone like Lisa or someone like 22 Ms. Oweis to make sure that they are still in good 23 shape or need repairs. 24 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 25 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: We have a 89 1 question of Lisa. Can the public ask questions? 2 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Director Marks. 3 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, just for 4 the Board's edification and for the record, for 5 either Mr. Oury or Mr. Bertin, can you describe the 6 subdivision, what exactly is going to occur through 7 the subdivision? I went through the -- I'm sorry, I 8 thought we had a copy of the subdivision plat and I 9 went through and went through again and I don't have 10 a copy of the subdivision application here. 11 Would you have a subdivision plat, the 12 proposed plat? Can you explain that for the Board 13 and for the rest of the public? 14 MR. BERTIN: Yes. Right now, south of 15 the main entrance drive we have two lots, Lot 10 and 16 Lot 11. Current tax lots. They are going to be 17 combined into one lot, these two lots will be 18 combined into one lot. 19 Then on the north side is a combination 20 of several lots and they are also going to be 21 combined. 22 So when we're done, this will be two 23 lots, south of the driveway will be one lot and north 24 of the driveway will be a second lot. 25 MR. OURY: However, under the North 90 1 Bergen, I'm glad you raised that, under the North 2 Bergen resolution there will be cross-easements 3 between the two lots for purposes of parking and 4 access. 5 And the reason that that was testified 6 to before the local board, and if you have questions, 7 Mr. Basralian is here, he handled the real estate 8 aspect of this, there are investors in both lots that 9 are a little bit different. There are common 10 investors in both, but we needed to keep them in 11 separate entities. Not for zoning reasons or 12 anything like that, only because they are investors. 13 So what we have done with the local 14 planning board is to marry the two lots, so to speak, 15 for cross-easements, for access of parking. The 16 point is that this development was presented both to 17 the local board and to you as one development, it's 18 not two developments. 19 MR. BERTIN: To answer your question, 20 Mr. Marks, we did not prepare a separate plat. That 21 information is shown on the site plan. Because this 22 would not be a major subdivision. We were going to 23 file the lot changes by deed. If you look on 24 Sheet 2.1, there happens to be one of the property 25 lines goes right through Bank of America. You'll see 91 1 there is a Z through it and there's a note there that 2 says existing lot line removed. 3 I have a larger set of plans. 4 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair. 5 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Yes. 6 DIRECTOR MARKS: I would just recommend 7 that Mr. Bertin, I guess make a technical correction 8 to Sheet C-2.1 to I guess label it site plan and 9 subdivision plat. 10 MR. BERTIN: Yes, yes, we will do that. 11 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I got a 12 question. You said that the planning board approved 13 this; right? 14 MR. BERTIN: Correct, the North Bergen 15 Planning Board, yes. 16 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: It had to 17 also go through the zoning board? 18 MR. OURY: No. 19 MR. BERTIN: No. 20 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Wasn't that 21 rezoned? 22 MR. OURY: By the mayor and council. 23 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: By the mayor 24 and council. 25 MR. OURY: In other words, what occurred 92 1 here is the -- I think Mr. Chewkaskie could probably 2 answer better than I. I forget what the original 3 zoning was but we needed to have the zoning changed 4 so this was an as-of-right application. Mayor and 5 council had their planners look at it and the 6 commissioners were in favor of this type of 7 development at that site so they changed the zoning. 8 So we went before the planning board on an 9 as-of-right application. 10 MR. BERTIN: This was zoned for -- 11 highrise residential, P-2 zone, and in looking at the 12 amount of residential that was already on River Road, 13 we actually brought it to the town, and Mr. Oury came 14 with us, to change it to a commercial zone. 15 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: What was 16 zoned for highrise, all that property? 17 MR. BERTIN: The whole property was 18 zoned. Up to eight stories. 19 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: What piece of 20 that property was owned by North Bergen? 21 MR. BERTIN: Well, a lot of this 22 property was owned by North Bergen. I'm going to say 23 from the middle of the Bank of America to the north 24 property line was owned by -- 25 MR. OURY: Still in the P-2 zone. 93 1 MR. BERTIN: Still in the P-2 zone, yes. 2 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: You could 3 have built an eight-story building, correct? 4 MR. BERTIN: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: You would 6 have to go through the same routine as you did with 7 this project? I mean remove the stone and all that, 8 or would it be -- 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, we would do the exact 10 same thing. The site would look different but it 11 would be the same. Just like the property north was 12 approved for an eight-story building, where "Suicide 13 Bridge" is, that property was already level but it 14 would look like that. 15 MR. OURY: Mr. Chewkaskie, he 16 participated in the rezoning, but I think the purpose 17 was to provide retail support for the residences that 18 were being built on the river. Because it's kind of 19 out of North Bergen, so to speak, on River Road. 20 And number two, North Bergen 21 Commissioners, I think were sensitive to the heighth 22 that could be built there, which would be eight 23 stories. 24 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: You say 25 there's a park on top of there; is that a North 94 1 Bergen park? 2 MR. BERTIN: Yes. 3 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Go ahead, 4 Director. 5 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, one other, 6 I guess, technical revision or correction. 7 For Sheet C-2.1, I think all subdivision 8 plats have to be signed and sealed by a licensed 9 professional land surveyor. So if you could -- since 10 it is a subdivision plat, if you could correct the 11 Sheet C-2? 12 MR. BERTIN: I'll just prepare a 13 subdivision plat separate. 14 DIRECTOR MARKS: Okay. 15 MR. BERTIN: This way we both don't have 16 to sign it, the surveyor will sign it. Actually it's 17 a reverse subdivision, really is what it is. 18 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Do you have a 19 question? 20 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Yes, Madam 21 Chair. I'm not sure who I should be asking this 22 question, whether it's Mr. Bertin or Ms. Mahle. 23 I want to go back to the slope and 24 discuss that. Because the County Engineer's office 25 has significant concern over the stability and safety 95 1 of the slope and obviously that slope supports the 2 Boulevard East and the sidewalks and the park along 3 there. 4 The study, the borings that you're doing 5 right now, they are still ongoing and obviously we 6 need to evaluate these reports and the design. 7 Before we would approve construction we have to be 8 satisfied with that. But how much more time do you 9 need to complete your analysis? 10 THE WITNESS: The borings are still 11 being completed. They just started two days ago. 12 They will probably take probably Monday, Tuesday next 13 week, depending on the progress. Then I need at 14 least a week to prepare everything and get everything 15 together. 16 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: And then you'll 17 put a report together for submission to -- 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's going to take a 19 while. Little bit of time. 20 MR. BERTIN: That report will be 21 reviewed by North Bergen. But I didn't mention 22 earlier, when Mr. Oury was asking me about some of 23 the things that have transpired since the last 24 meeting, I was aware that the County has authorized 25 Medina consulting to also review the geotechnical 96 1 aspects of this project, and it was discussed at our 2 work session, and I did have an informal conversation 3 with them and we're going to supply all our analysis 4 to Medina so they can actually -- actually even the 5 computer program, to do the modeling. 6 So that's going to take -- even though 7 we're finished, it's still going to take some time. 8 It's not going to be like two weeks and it's over. 9 This is probably going to take, I'm going to say, six 10 weeks, two months, because we're going back and forth 11 between two review engineers. 12 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Right. The 13 Township's geotechnical engineer that they have 14 hired, they have completed their report? 15 MR. BERTIN: They will discuss. They 16 are here, let them talk. 17 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: All right. So 18 you haven't seen anything from them? 19 MR. BERTIN: Well, I'll just defer. 20 MR. OURY: Let me answer that question. 21 They were not hired, and Mr. Chewkaskie can answer 22 this, but they weren't hired, my understanding, to do 23 a report, they were hired to oversee and consult with 24 us as this project goes along. 25 In other words, my understanding is they 97 1 are going to be with this project from start to 2 finish. This is not -- they were hired not just to 3 do a report, they were hired to review, on behalf of 4 the borough, what we were doing going forward. And 5 what we're suggesting tonight is when we're completed 6 with this hearing, we would like you to vote on it 7 subject to the continuing jurisdiction of the Board 8 with regard to this issue of the results of the 9 drilling. 10 Now, there's a lot of work that needs to 11 be done. As you know, Demetrio, that isn't going to 12 affect the stability of the site, but we'd like to 13 get started because we have been, you know, in 14 holding pattern for quite some time. But of course, 15 the County must retain jurisdiction. I'm guessing 16 the 30 to 60 days is probably the right number, 17 giving Mr. -- I don't know if it's you, Ed, or 18 someone else in your office that's going to review 19 this geotechnical material, but we'll have our stuff 20 out in two or three weeks. 21 I'm guessing the way this is going to go 22 is Ms. Oweis, our geotechnical person and someone 23 from Medina is going to get together in a room and 24 they are -- everybody is going to give their input as 25 to how to design a stabilization plan. They are 98 1 going to review our stabilization plan, I assume make 2 suggestions as to how to do it and then we're going 3 to do it. 4 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: And -- 5 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Madam Chairman, 6 on point of information, I have reviewed that report. 7 It is finished and it's addressed to Mr. Marks. 8 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Excuse me, let 9 Counselor finish first. Go ahead, Counselor. 10 MR. OURY: So, Demetrio, as I 11 anticipate, as with most applications, as we move 12 forward, after we get the approvals, the County will 13 have continuing jurisdiction. 14 Now, I don't know whether you or 15 Mr. Chewkaskie want to both have jurisdiction over 16 the review or you want to have one person review it, 17 that's between the County and North Bergen. But I 18 know somebody is going to be reviewing it as we move 19 forward. 20 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: As far as 21 the -- you complete your study, you're going to be 22 designing the stabilization system? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, the rock holding 24 patterns and the slope stabilization, the overburden, 25 if that needs to be addressed, depending on the 99 1 areas. 2 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: It will be a 3 complete design, a final design, or do you need to do 4 further exploration to achieve? 5 THE WITNESS: At that point and then I 6 would give it to Oweis and someone at Medina and they 7 would oversee it and if they had any comment or 8 problem, we would address it then if they see any 9 areas of concern. 10 MR. BERTIN: If I could elaborate on 11 that, we won't know everything until you uncover it. 12 So, yes, it's going to be a complete design, but 13 you're going to have to adjust the field condition 14 because we can't see underground. We're doing 15 borings to get a handle on what's underground. We 16 may have to change some methods. Maybe the bolts 17 have to be closer together. 18 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: The cliff, it's 19 a diabase on top and a sandstone along the bottom 20 and -- 21 THE WITNESS: Basically. 22 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Right. And 23 there's like a slight dip or so for the -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. The diabase is 25 almost vertical. It varies from 12 percent to five 100 1 percent dip. Mostly, toward the north and west areas 2 it's sandstone. I don't have a specific, but from 3 looking at other areas north of the site, that I 4 could see the sandstone layer, it's also dipping 5 slightly to the northwest. 6 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: And as far as 7 exposure to the sandstone, I guess you're going to 8 keep that in line with the diabase? 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, there's going to be 10 drill holes first. They are going to drill a line of 11 the proposed slope first and then they are going to 12 come back and follow that line down so they know 13 exactly where they are at all times. 14 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Will there be 15 any containment system for the sandstone necessary, 16 bolting? 17 THE WITNESS: There might be. We'll 18 have to see when we get down to that layer. There 19 might be some. I haven't done the analysis so I 20 don't know the exact number. There might be some. 21 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Would you need 22 to do additional borings or surveys for that or -- 23 THE WITNESS: No, when I do my analysis 24 on my program. I mean you might have to add one here 25 or there, depending on -- you're only looking at a 101 1 small area, you might have to add one here, take one 2 there, add one. 3 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Okay, thank 4 you. 5 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I got a 6 question. They said that there was a report given to 7 you, Mr. Marks? 8 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, I believe 9 the Board has everything that was furnished to the 10 Division of Planning in your packets tonight. I 11 think what the gentleman was referring to, who was in 12 my office this afternoon, was the geotechnical study. 13 If it's not in your report, either Mr. Bertin or I'm 14 sure the applicant can furnish it. 15 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I want to 16 know, did our professionals look at that? 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: Mr. Reimon from Medina 18 Consultants. 19 MR. REIMON: Yes, we did. 20 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Did you 21 review it or you still have some questions on it? 22 MR. REIMON: Well, we reviewed the 23 report and at the time that we reviewed the report we 24 issued comments and we also recommended more borings 25 and that's what they are doing right now. 102 1 MR. OURY: There was a slope analysis 2 report that was given to the Board on December 17th, 3 2008. A copy was given to Ed Reimon. I think he had 4 responded to that and one of his recommendations was 5 the same as Ms. Oweis' recommendation. Which is they 6 need some borings, which is what we have been doing. 7 We did give them a slope analysis report 8 and when we're finished with the drilling -- although 9 I think Ed may have gotten information on it this 10 week. 11 MR. REIMON: We got some information on 12 the borings that were done recently. I actually 13 passed by yesterday and I saw the last boring that's 14 being done on top of the Palisades by Boulevard East. 15 Everything is inconclusive at this time. I believe 16 that we have to wait for the final result of the lab 17 test. She has to do a lot of work in order for us to 18 actually do a review. We need to be provided with 19 the software that they are going to use to make the 20 actual analysis and actually do the design. 21 So all these things are going to take 22 some time. 23 MR. OURY: I don't disagree, Mr. Reimon. 24 That's what we intend to do. He's going to need a 25 couple weeks, probably, to review it. Is somebody in 103 1 your office going to be reviewing it? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: You're 4 looking to approve this tonight? 5 MR. OURY: Right, subject to continuing 6 jurisdiction of the Board to have your engineer and 7 the town's engineer to continue to review the 8 information as it comes in. 9 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: What happens 10 if our engineer says there's a lot of problems here? 11 MR. OURY: We have to deal with them. 12 If we don't, then we can't build the project. 13 I mean there's no information that is -- 14 that this Board has that says, and Ms. Oweis will 15 deal with this, from an engineering standpoint, 16 whatever we encounter can't be fixed. That's not the 17 situation here. I think that's what is in people's 18 head. It can be fixed. 19 The question: What engineering 20 technology do you use to fix it? I think Mr. Reimon 21 is right, you need to get the data in order to come 22 up with the fix for it. That's why I raised the 23 report that was done by PMK. Because that's where 24 they came from in their report. They are not saying 25 that you can't build, they are saying you got to be 104 1 sensitive to the engineering fix, for whatever 2 problem you encounter. 3 MR. REIMON: May I say this? 4 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Excuse me. 5 Counselor, go ahead. 6 MR. CALVANICO: Madam Chair, I wanted to 7 make something clear because I want the record to be 8 clear. 9 Reference was made to a report. 10 Geotechnical report that's been supplied to the Board 11 and that Mr. Reimon has reviewed, was provided by 12 Johnson Soils, Ms. Mahle's company. We don't have 13 any report from the Township, from Ms. Oweis' firm. 14 I wanted that to be clear because I 15 don't know that it came out clear enough on the 16 record. We do not -- there's no report, as far as we 17 know, from Ms. Oweis. 18 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I want to 19 know what the Township report is too. I want all the 20 puzzles together. 21 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Pieces of the 23 puzzles together. 24 MR. OURY: I'm going to let 25 Mr. Chewkaskie address that. Maybe this is an 105 1 appropriate time to talk about what is expected of 2 Ms. Oweis and what the Township intends to do. 3 MR. CHEWKASKIE: Madam Chair, I can 4 certainly present Ms. Oweis now if that's what the 5 Board would like. It may clarify a number of the 6 issues that the Board has. 7 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: We can't hear 8 you. 9 MR. OURY: I'll sit down. 10 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Go ahead. 11 MR. CALVANICO: Before we do that, we 12 may want to finish with Mr. Oury's case if he has any 13 additional witnesses. 14 MR. OURY: I don't have any further 15 witnesses. I reserve the right to recall witnesses 16 based upon testimony. I have no other witnesses. I 17 think I've addressed the issues. 18 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Our planner, Steve 19 Marks, I have a question. 20 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Director Marks. 21 DIRECTOR MARKS: I believe the court 22 reporter is requesting a break. 23 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Ten-minute break 24 for the stenographer. 25 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 106 1 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: If there's anyone 2 in the audience that has a question, please come up, 3 state your name and address, and just ask the 4 question you want answered. 5 MR. CURLEY: First we have additional 6 testimony from an expert. 7 MR. OURY: Ms. Oweis' going to testify. 8 MR. CURLEY: In addition, I wanted to 9 see if Mr. Oury is present. 10 Mr. Oury, if the Board decides to grant 11 the application on a conditional basis, would the 12 applicant agree to a number one condition, that it 13 would be subject to the approval of the County 14 Engineer, especially with respect to the 15 stabilization issue? 16 MR. OURY: Yes. 17 MR. CURLEY: In addition to that, the 18 application would be subject to the posting of a 19 performance bond? 20 MR. OURY: Yes. 21 MR. CURLEY: To perform any of that 22 stabilization work? 23 MR. OURY: Yes. That's normal procedure 24 for the County Planning Board, yes. 25 MR. CURLEY: The third thing is that the 107 1 Discharge Permits, that the County holds for 2 discharging stormwater into the Hudson River, if that 3 is affected by the tie-in, the applicant would have 4 to find a different means for discharging stormwater 5 and would that be a condition? 6 MR. OURY: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Chairman. 8 (Applause.) 9 In the last meeting -- I have a 10 question. The last meeting, Mr. Mario said we had a 11 stop work order and we had a confusion that certain 12 type of work can be allowed or not allowed on the 13 property. And then there is a penalty. Is that 14 issue resolved? 15 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, what 16 Commissioner Mehta is referring to is the work that 17 commenced on the site beginning on or about 18 December 8th or 9th. And I think that's a matter, if 19 the applicant wants to or the applicant's attorney 20 wants to convey to the Board what type of work that 21 was, it appeared to the County and to the County's 22 Building Inspector that it was predevelopment work 23 that occurred before the County approval had been 24 granted. 25 If the applicant or his attorney wants 108 1 to contest that, that's up to them. I don't think 2 that -- it may have been an issue that was a question 3 that was raised at the last public hearing, but I'm 4 not sure if it was answered. 5 MR. OURY: It was answered. I don't 6 think any action was taken but I'll reiterate our 7 position. Which was that the work that was being 8 done, as you heard tonight from the testimony, was to 9 construct this roadway to get to the top so that we 10 can do the drilling. That's the work. And we have 11 not removed any of the material off of the site, as 12 you heard Mr. Bertin say. Except we constructed that 13 berm along River Road. 14 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Commissioner, go 15 ahead. 16 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: The performance, 17 for how long the performance bond going to be in 18 place? 19 MR. CURLEY: The performance bond would 20 stay in place until the work was completed and 21 accepted by the County. Then there be would be a 22 maintenance bond of typically two years, there's a 23 limit of two years on the maintenance bond. 24 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Let's say in ten, 25 fifteen years, something happens with the development 109 1 over the fixing of that? 2 MR. OURY: The answer is yes, the 3 developer would be responsible. If anything happened 4 to the road that was directly related to the work 5 that we did, of course we'd be responsible. I just 6 heard tonight, from Mr. Bertin, that North Bergen 7 apparently has an ordinance that requires the work 8 that would be done to be inspected on a yearly basis. 9 Which I assume we're going to pay for the inspection, 10 are we not? 11 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Inspect by whom? 12 MR. OURY: By North Bergen engineers. 13 They have their own ordinance. 14 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Just 15 hypothetically, if he sells that property? 16 MR. OURY: That goes with the property. 17 Absolutely. That responsibility continues, it goes 18 with the land. I mean the idea now -- we're not 19 selling the property, but you're right, in ten years 20 it could be sold, but there's an ordinance in place 21 that requires yearly inspections that the applicant 22 pays for on a yearly basis. 23 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: That ordinance 24 is on the record now? 25 MR. OURY: Apparently, yes. Am I right, 110 1 Mr. Bertin? 2 MR. BERTIN: It was also part of the 3 condition of the resolution in this application as it 4 was with some other projects. 5 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I got a 6 question. Number one, was there any actions taken by 7 the County on this development as far as permits or 8 violations? Do you know? Mario, do you know? 9 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Mario. 10 MR. TRIDENTE: Madam Chair, yes, we did 11 issue a request to stop order through the local 12 construction official but then he advised me that 13 there were no permits issued so he could not issue 14 any stop work orders on any permits that were issued. 15 MR. OURY: That's what happened, yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: You mean to 17 tell me that -- was there work done on that property? 18 MR. TRIDENTE: It was preliminary site 19 work. 20 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Does that 21 need permits? 22 MR. TRIDENTE: As far as we are 23 concerned, I don't think so. Not under our 24 guidelines, not that I'm aware of. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, normally 111 1 for a development application, you need a building 2 permit if you're putting in a foundation or roadways 3 or utilities or whatever. 4 I guess the category or type of work 5 that was being done -- 6 MR. OURY: Exploratory. 7 DIRECTOR MARKS: Exploratory and 8 therefore didn't need a construction and building 9 permit in the Township of North Bergen. 10 MR. OURY: What we did get was a Soil 11 Conservation Permit, which is why we built that berm, 12 which of course has been a help. 13 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Also a 14 question, in one of the things, I brought it up 15 before, the waiver, we have to find out who has 16 jurisdiction on that waiver. 17 MR. OURY: This Board does. 18 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I am not a 19 professional, I think our lawyers would have to look 20 at either State of New Jersey or Hudson County, 21 whoever has the most stringent, the most stringent 22 procedure. I'm not a lawyer, but I know a little bit 23 about codes. 24 MR. CALVANICO: Madam Chair, if I might? 25 As I indicated earlier, the County has a 112 1 section within the Land Development Regulations that 2 covers this waiver. The specifications that are 3 contained within the State regulations are more 4 specific. We would presume that those are subsumed 5 within the County's ordinance. 6 In other words, we need to follow those, 7 the State regulations, as part of our compliance with 8 the County's regulations. So it would be, in effect, 9 the State regulation which appears to be more 10 stringent. 11 MR. TRIDENTE: Madam Chair, I just have 12 a question for Mr. Oury. 13 Being that you brought it up, on the 14 bottom of the Hudson/Passaic Soil Conservation 15 District Permit, in the last sentence it states that 16 it is not authorized to engage in proposed land use 17 unless such use has been previously approved by the 18 municipality or other controlling agency. 19 MR. OURY: Correct. 20 MR. TRIDENTE: So does that make the 21 Soil Conservation Permit null and void until you 22 receive prior approvals? 23 MR. OURY: No. We received the prior 24 zoning approval from North Bergen. County doesn't 25 have zoning approval. The County has jurisdiction 113 1 over things like stormwater runoff, sewer runoff, the 2 integrity of the road system and traffic. That's not 3 zoning use approval. 4 MR. TRIDENTE: But specifically to the 5 Soil Conservation Permit, by the issuance of that 6 permit doesn't grant you permission to start work? 7 MR. OURY: Oh, no, no, no. I'm sorry, I 8 misunderstood you. The answer is no. What that 9 permit gave us the authority to do, it's our 10 position, to do the berm which they required and that 11 stops the water from going across River Road, and to 12 do this exploratory work so that Mr. Reimon and the 13 other engineers have the data in order to have us 14 move forward. We haven't gone for a building permit 15 yet. 16 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Madam Chair. 17 So, for the record, you're stating that 18 you're not going to proceed to build anything until 19 all heads get together and figure out how -- 20 MR. OURY: No, what I'm saying is I 21 would like this Board to vote this evening to approve 22 the application. That will then allow us to do a lot 23 of work on the site which has nothing to do with the 24 stabilization. There's a lot of other work that 25 needs to be done. I could then go to the building 114 1 department. 2 But my restriction on that, as 3 Mr. Curley just said, is that I have to pass through 4 your engineers, which is normal, the data that we're 5 getting, over the next two weeks, to construct a plan 6 which will stabilize the rockface as a result of the 7 removal of this material. We're not ready to remove 8 the material because there's a lot of other work that 9 can be done on the site. 10 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: That's the point 11 I'm making. You're not ready to build anything. 12 MR. OURY: Right, I got to remove the 13 material. In order to build any foundations we have 14 to remove the material. And what we're doing now, 15 this drilling work, will allow us to remove the 16 material. And as we go along, I'm sure Mr. Reimon 17 will -- we're going to have a plan for rock bolting. 18 As Mr. Bertin said, you don't know -- 19 you drill some test pits, but when you uncover the 20 earth there are certain changes that may occur and we 21 have to address those as we go forward. This is a 22 continuing work in progress, that's my point. But 23 I'd like the Board to vote on this because there's a 24 lot of other work that we can do that's not related 25 to that. 115 1 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Chairman. 2 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Mr. Oury, one more 4 question. Regarding the site plan subdivision 5 application, you were saying that you are planning to 6 have two lots, so it will be two separate deeds or 7 one deed? 8 MR. OURY: No, it's one project. What 9 we did was, there are two lots, and they have certain 10 owners and those entities are common and certain are 11 not. So for the purpose of ownership, we have two 12 lots that are going to be connected by 13 cross-easements for parking and access and all those 14 other things. As far as this Board is concerned, 15 it's one application, it's one project. 16 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: There will be one 17 deed or two separate deeds for the two separate lots? 18 MR. BASRALIAN: Two deeds. But the 19 requirement is that -- 20 MR. OURY: Why don't you step up, Joe? 21 Mr. Basralian is an attorney in Hackensack, he's more 22 familiar with that part of it. 23 MR. BASRALIAN: Yes, the southern two 24 lots have already been merged together by a deed, so 25 it's now one lot. The northerly lot is a separate 116 1 deed. It is treated as one project. The application 2 is one project. As a matter of fact, they could not 3 be conveyed separately, they would have to go 4 together in any case. 5 So it is one project. The only reason 6 why there are two separate lots is because of the, as 7 Mr. Oury explained, the difference in ownership. 8 Otherwise it is one project. The Planning Board in 9 North Bergen treated it that way, so should this 10 Planning Board as well. 11 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Just now the issue 12 came up about the performance bond as well as the 13 maintenance bond. So my only concern is in the 14 future, the performance bond will be under one deed 15 or which deed, who will be the responsible -- 16 MR. OURY: Forget deed, it's going to be 17 on the whole project. 18 MR. BASRALIAN: The performance bond 19 requirement, which is very substantial, by North 20 Bergen, is on the entire project, the two lots, as 21 with the performance bond for the County as well. 22 It's one per bond for the entire property. 23 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Question 24 though; it's two deeds, right? 25 MR. BASRALIAN: Yes. 117 1 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Two different 2 owners? 3 MR. BASRALIAN: Yes, there's common 4 ownership in the two properties, the two deeds. 5 However, they are not identical and that's why they 6 are separate in two deeds. It is one project, it is 7 entirely treated as one. 8 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: There's going 9 to be two different owners? 10 MR. BASRALIAN: Yes, there are two 11 different owners. Two different limited liability 12 companies own the property, yes. 13 MR. OURY: That has no bearing on either 14 board. 15 MR. BASRALIAN: Right. 16 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: What happens 17 if one owner says I ain't going to go through with 18 this? 19 MR. OURY: Then they can't go through 20 with the project. Everything would fail. 21 MR. BASRALIAN: Then everything would 22 fail, yes. It has to be constructed together. It's 23 not an independent project. 24 MR. OURY: That's what the concern of 25 the local board was and what your concern would be, 118 1 you want to make sure that this is treated as one 2 project, that you can't build one store without the 3 other two or two without the other one. That's the 4 way we're presenting it to you. 5 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: In sync? 6 MR. OURY: Exactly. 7 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: One can't wake 8 up in the morning and say I'm out of here? 9 MR. OURY: No. 10 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I'm not a 11 lawyer, can one say I got the approval from Hudson 12 County, all right, I'm going to sell it to you? 13 MR. OURY: Sell it to who? 14 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: John Doe. 15 MR. OURY: We can sell it to anybody as 16 with any application. 17 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: One owner 18 says adios, I'm going to sell my interest to John 19 Doe? 20 MR. BASRALIAN: The project has to be 21 consolidated, it has to be treated as one. It's not 22 treated as two separate projects. You couldn't build 23 the northern parcel without building the southern 24 parcel. Access to the entire property comes in off 25 of the northern -- 119 1 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: It's a 2 redevelopment? 3 MR. BASRALIAN: There's reciprocal 4 easement agreements that have already been recorded 5 for access, for drainage, for parking. The two are 6 interlocked. It's no different than large shopping 7 centers all over the Northeast where the anchor 8 tenants own their own property and the rest of the 9 property would be owned by the shopping center 10 itself. They are all cross-easement agreements, they 11 have to function together. 12 MR. CHEWKASKIE: Madam Chair, did you 13 want brief testimony from us before questions? 14 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: You want to ask 15 questions? 16 MR. CALVANICO: Madam Chairlady, I would 17 recommend that we have the Township present their 18 portion of it and then we take the questions. 19 MR. CHEWKASKIE: Commissioner 20 Fitzgibbons, maybe to address some of your questions, 21 a lot of what you asked were addressed at the local 22 board level. 23 There are two owners of the two lots, 24 subdivision was reviewed and approved by the North 25 Bergen Planning Board. They were reciprocal 120 1 cross-easement agreements. Fancy term is that they 2 both have the right to use the common properties. 3 All the infrastructure, all the parking lot. All of 4 the documentation has been reviewed and approved, 5 both by the attorneys for the Board and also the 6 Township Engineer which is Boswell McClave which is 7 Rick McGrath. 8 That's been done. The subdivision deeds 9 have been reviewed and approved. The developer's 10 agreement requires both parties to execute the 11 agreement. One cannot act independently with the 12 other. So as you say, somebody can't say I'll just 13 go. Somebody wants to sell out their portion of the 14 project, that new person would have to come in and be 15 subject to. 16 What North Bergen does, if there's a 17 developer's agreement in place, it's going to require 18 an assignment and approval of the Board of 19 Commissioners of North Bergen. So those controls are 20 in place. Same is true with the performance bonds. 21 The performance bonds will name both owners, they 22 will have to be reviewed and approved, they will have 23 to be in a form acceptable and in an amount that has 24 already been determined by the Township Engineer. 25 And that will also coordinate with the County. 121 1 So hopefully that makes it a little 2 clearer as to what happened before the Board. 3 As Mr. Basralian indicated, if you look 4 at it as a shopping center, a shopping center has all 5 the integral parts, you see how it works, but when 6 you look at the legal structure there may be several 7 different owners of those parcels. 8 So I hope that answers your question. 9 One of the issues that has come up is 10 with respect to the Township and Ms. Oweis and 11 whether there was a report issued by Ms. Oweis. I 12 will have Ms. Oweis testify as to what she is doing, 13 but she has basically been engaged, just like Medina 14 has been by this Board or by any board, as a 15 reviewing professional. 16 So, we do have the testimony to tell you 17 what the Township is doing with respect to the 18 specific slope issues. And unless there are any 19 questions, I will call Ms. Oweis at this time. 20 MR. CALVANICO: Please state your name, 21 spell your last name. 22 THE WITNESS: Luma Oweis, O-W-E-I-S. 23 L U M A O W E I S, having been duly 24 sworn, testifies as follows: 25 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. CHEWKASKIE: 122 1 Q. Ms. Oweis, could you give the Board the 2 benefit of your professional qualifications and 3 experience, please? 4 A. Sure. I am a geotechnical engineer. I 5 work at Oweis Engineering, which actually is my own 6 company. I have about, I would say, 15 years of 7 experience in geotechnical engineering. Graduated 8 from Rutgers University with a Bachelor's Degree in 9 civil engineering and a Master's Degree in 10 geotechnical engineering. I've been in the field for 11 about 15 years. 12 Also on staff at Oweis Engineering. 13 Happens to be my father, who is very experienced in 14 geotechnical engineering, probably over 35 years, I 15 would say, and particularly in rock mechanics. 16 Q. Now, Ms. Oweis, in the past 15 years you 17 have exclusively practiced in the field of 18 engineering with a specialty in geotechnical, 19 correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Do you have any specific licenses, 22 degrees or certifications with respect to 23 geotechnical requirements? 24 A. Yes. As I say, I have a BS Degree and a 25 Master's Degree in geotechnical engineering. I have 123 1 a professional license in New Jersey, New York, 2 Connecticut, Pennsylvania and Delaware. 3 MR. CHEWKASKIE: Madam Chair, I'd 4 present Ms. Oweis as an expert in the field of 5 geotechnical engineering. 6 Thank you. 7 Q. Ms. Oweis, could you describe what you 8 were retained by the Township of North Bergen to do 9 with respect to the project that is presently being 10 considered by this Board? 11 A. I was retained by the Township to 12 basically recommend an investigation for the proposed 13 development. 14 Q. Now, did you make a recommendation with 15 regard to what investigation should in fact occur? 16 A. Yes, I basically provided a proposal of 17 the -- of what a recommended investigation would be, 18 from a geotechnical standpoint, to address how to 19 come up with a stabilization procedure for this 20 proposed rock cut. 21 Q. Now, that recommendation for such 22 investigation was provided to Johnson Soils, correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And based upon what you've recommended 25 for investigation, has the work commenced to 124 1 implement that investigation? 2 A. Yes, it has. 3 Q. And perhaps if you could briefly tell 4 the Board, what process you are requiring in order to 5 arrive at certain recommendations regarding 6 stabilization? 7 A. What I am recommending to be done is 8 that borings are performed, oriented core borings are 9 performed from the top of slope, to determine the 10 composition of the entire slope basically, from top 11 to bottom, perform rock mapping measurement wherever 12 rock outcrops are readily seen from the slope, and to 13 do test pits to determine the depths of overburden, 14 to eventually gather enough data to come up with the 15 appropriate stabilization plan. 16 Q. Now, that investigation is being 17 supervised either by you personally or by someone 18 from your office as it is being conducted by Johnson? 19 A. Yes, in part. 20 Q. Now, at the present time, the 21 investigation is continuing, correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And we're still awaiting results for the 24 borings that was indicated to this Board earlier? 25 A. That is right. 125 1 Q. All right. Once that is completed, what 2 needs to be done by Johnson in order to evaluate that 3 information? 4 A. Once the fieldwork is completed and all 5 the data is gathered, Johnson needs to prepare a 6 technical report, basically summarizing what specific 7 stabilization measures are necessary and where along 8 the slope. 9 Q. And then that report is to be submitted 10 to you for your review and recommendations, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And at that point in time, you would 13 issue a written report as to what needs to be done? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Would you have any objection to 16 providing that report to the County's consulting 17 engineer, Medina? 18 A. Absolutely not. 19 MR. CHEWKASKIE: I have no further 20 questions for Ms. Oweis, Madam Chair. 21 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 22 (Applause.) 23 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I want to ask 24 a question. I know you're well qualified and I just 25 want to ask you, have you ever -- was there ever 126 1 boring done on that type of rock formation? 2 THE WITNESS: A boring done? Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: No, was there 4 ever -- before this, was there ever boring done on 5 that type of -- as you know it on that rock 6 formation? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sure. I've done it 8 in this county, actually. 9 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: On that type 10 of rock? 11 THE WITNESS: Diabase rock? Absolutely, 12 it's prevalent in this area. 13 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: That's all I 14 want to know. 15 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Chairwoman. 16 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: In your opinion, 18 whatever proposal they are doing for the 19 stabilization of the rock formation and what they are 20 going to do, with that procedure it will be 21 stabilized better or it will be eroded in Palisade? 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 23 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: It will be eroded, 24 it will be deteriorated? 25 THE WITNESS: By doing what they are 127 1 doing, by stabilizing the slope they will be 2 improving the slope. 3 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: There will be 4 improvement of the Palisade? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. It's more than 6 you have now, basically. 7 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 8 Next speaker, please. Try not to repeat 9 the same question. Let's have different questions. 10 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Madam Chair? 11 Do you have any comments or questions, Ed? 12 MR. REIMON: One question that I may ask 13 is, how did the municipality come about a performance 14 bond or maintenance bond? I believe that you had 15 stated that there's already a fee associated to that 16 bond. 17 MR. CHEWKASKIE: We have an estimated 18 bond, Mr. Reimon, at the present time. That may 19 change. We haven't finalized the development. We 20 have a draft. We have a significant bond. 21 Mr. Basralian, I forget off the top of 22 my head -- 23 MR. BASRALIAN: It's a million dollars. 24 MR. CHEWKASKIE: It's a million dollars. 25 It also includes some stabilization that has been 128 1 determined by Boswell. But that would be amended 2 once all these reports are done. 3 MR. OURY: Right. 4 MR. REIMON: Okay. 5 MR. CHEWKASKIE: And based upon, I guess 6 what I've heard this evening, there will have to be 7 some coordination on the bonding between the County 8 and the municipality, or there may be a joint bond. 9 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Madam Chair? 10 When you say a joint bond, joint with whom? 11 MR. CHEWKASKIE: Joint bond would be in 12 favor of both the County and the municipality. So 13 that they would both be beneficiaries of the bond if 14 they are concerned about the same type of work. 15 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: I thought you 16 said something else, thank you. 17 MR. REIMON: There you go. 18 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. Next 19 person with a question. You have a question? 20 MR. REIMON: Yeah, I haven't finished 21 yet. 22 Regarding the maintenance bond, I 23 believe that it is being stated also that it's going 24 to be a cycle of inspections on a yearly basis. 25 MR. CHEWKASKIE: What the resolution of 129 1 approval has required, as a result of whatever 2 methodologies used to implement stabilization, that 3 there be yearly inspection reports provided, that 4 they be reviewed, and in all likelihood the 5 resolution will be recorded so everyone in the world 6 knows that this is required. And it is specifically 7 set forth in the developer's agreement. 8 So all these documents are prepared, 9 they are in draft form still, because they have not 10 been executed, awaiting to what the County does. 11 We'll certainly share it with you. 12 MR. REIMON: Yeah. Well, the reason why 13 I made this comment is because my vision of a cycle 14 inspection is not only to just go there and inspect 15 the site, but also to make recommendations of any 16 deficiencies that might be found in the inspection. 17 So if there's any need to fix any 18 problems, that has to be done. And then the 19 maintenance bond is only for two years, so who is 20 going to pay for any kind of -- let's say if the 21 netting breaks in year five or year seven, who is 22 going to pay for that? Is that also stated in the 23 resolution, how that is going to be implemented? 24 MR. CHEWKASKIE: It's in the developer's 25 agreement for the enforcement procedure. 130 1 I think maybe what you've seen before is 2 as a result of the new stormwater regulations. North 3 Bergen requires either semiannual or annual 4 inspections of private stormwater facilities, so 5 there's no issue. Similar to that, we have 6 implemented it with respect to the slope 7 stabilization. We want to make sure that everything 8 is okay after the maintenance bond expires and 9 everyone forgets. So that's the purpose of the 10 inspection. 11 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Finished? 12 MR. REIMON: Yes. 13 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. Next 14 speaker, please. Next question. Next person want to 15 come up with a question? 16 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: You have a 17 list. People signed up. 18 DIRECTOR MARKS: Daniela Ciammaruconi 19 from my office is here and she has the list. She'll 20 call people from the order in which they signed in. 21 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Is there a limit? 22 DIRECTOR MARKS: Limit of people or -- 23 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Limit of how long 24 can a person -- 25 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Madam Chair, I 131 1 have a recommendation that we have submitted to 2 speakers -- 3 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Three minutes, I 4 said three minutes. I told them at the beginning of 5 the meeting. 6 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: The first person 7 scheduled to speak is Emil Fuda. 8 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Try not to ask 9 the same question, sir. Thank you. 10 MR. FUDA: I got to be sworn in? 11 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: No. 12 MR. CALVANICO: You don't need to be 13 sworn. State your name and your address for the 14 record. 15 MR. FUDA: Emil Fuda, 524-72nd Street. 16 This is a good project for North Bergen, 17 it does not impact our schools, it does not impact 18 our school systems or anything. I think you should 19 take into consideration to pass this project. 20 Also, according to your master plan, 21 you're very much in favor for the banking, for retail 22 stores. States on Page 2 of your master plan, to 23 provide economic commercialization of the county 24 commercial and industrial base, on Page 2. 25 Page 26, it says, the best development 132 1 opportunities for short-term are supermarkets, anchor 2 strips and community malls. 3 This is a very good project for North 4 Bergen. Not only helps us with our taxable but it is 5 an improvement for the county and for the Township of 6 North Bergen, thank you. 7 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 8 (Applause.) 9 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Herb Shaw. 10 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: I was late and 11 I haven't signed. I don't have a chance to ask 12 questions? I was late. I haven't signed. 13 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: We'll send another 14 list back. 15 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: When you hear 16 everybody on the list, then the people that are not 17 on the list can come afterward. You don't have to 18 sign now. 19 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Go ahead. You 20 have the list. 21 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Afterward, anybody 22 that hasn't talked. 23 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Daniela, next. 24 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: I have a quick 25 question. I mean this was supposed to be for 133 1 questions and then don't we get to comment 2 afterwards? That gentleman didn't really ask a 3 question, he just commented. So are we going to have 4 a chance to -- 5 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Chairman, let me 6 explain you something. Let me explain something. We 7 open the public session. On the public session you 8 have three minutes to talk anything related to 9 planning and to the project. You can ask questions, 10 you can talk for it, you can talk against it. I mean 11 it has to be related to the project. You can't come 12 here and start reading Shakespeare. It has to be 13 related. 14 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: The next person is 15 Herb Shaw. 16 MR. SHAW: Good evening. 17 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: I think we should 18 swear them in. 19 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: No, no. Go 20 ahead, sir. Continue. 21 MR. SHAW: Conspicuous by its absence is 22 any report on the seismic activity in that area. 23 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Madam Chair. 24 Excuse me. State your name and address, please. 25 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Herb Shaw. 134 1 It's on the record. 2 MR. OURY: It's not on the record unless 3 it's stated. 4 MR. SHAW: Okay. 1412-44th Street, 5 North Bergen. 6 Seismic activity, no reports. 7 Engineers, ex-professional P.E. engineers, nothing. 8 Where is the closest epicenter in this area; does 9 anybody know? 10 MR. REIMON: New York City. 11 MR. SHAW: It's right on the border 12 between Edgewater and Cliffside Park and North 13 Bergen. In the area of Gorge Road. Why is Gorge 14 Road there? Because it's a gorge. The Palisades in 15 that area collapsed, so they built a road there and 16 they called it, aptly, Gorge Road. It's not on the 17 Hudson County map, although it belongs -- half of 18 that belongs to North Bergen -- to Hudson County and 19 the other half belongs to Bergen County. It's their 20 road; it's your road too, half of it. 21 In that area, if you look up at the 22 Churchill Road project, which is an abomination, you 23 will see not diabase but you will see sedimentary 24 rock, shale. It's fragile. You hit it with a 25 hammer, it breaks off, no problems. It is protected 135 1 now by the netting, the infamous netting on 2 Palisades. It's no good. It's only put there 3 because they know it's going to fall down. So is the 4 proposed netting they are going to put on this 5 project. But the project before you, they put it 6 there because it's going to fall down. 7 The engineers have stated also, that the 8 debris that serves as the buttress now, a buttress 9 against the Palisades, it came off of the Palisades, 10 it fell there. Because it fell down. 11 Nature, by its forces and it's also 12 stated that the rock, the diabase that's there, is 13 fractured, meaning it has cracks in it. What happens 14 is plant life, as Freeholder Fitzgibbons mentioned, 15 makes roots in there, it spreads, water gets in 16 there, it freezes and it flakes off. That's how it 17 returns to soil, that's how all soil was 18 manufactured. 19 The companies that are behind this 20 project are LLCs, limited liability. Oh, they buy 21 insurance and after two years they walk away. They 22 can go bankrupt, as limited liability means, and just 23 good-bye, it fell down, we're sorry. 24 No rebuttal to that? No legal rebuttal? 25 Is that correct? 136 1 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Just state your 2 question, sir. That's it. 3 MR. SHAW: I'd like colloquy here. I 4 don't want to make speeches. I come here to get 5 information for myself and for the audience and for, 6 of course, the Board. 7 Now, is that true? That's a question -- 8 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Madam Chair, all 9 due respect to you, you get three minutes. There's a 10 lot of people here. 11 MR. SHAW: Never mind the three minutes, 12 I spent a lot of time on this. Today, I reviewed the 13 report that Mayor Sacco had made -- 14 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Sir, understand 15 something, there's rules here. Three minutes. You 16 have other people who would like to speak. 17 MR. SHAW: Are you going to vote for it? 18 You make the rules. You're casting aspersions, more 19 aspersions on Hudson County, I'm telling you. 20 I ask a question and you don't answer 21 it. You, Freeholder -- you, Board member, should 22 know the answer. If you don't, find out. 23 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 24 Next -- call the next speaker, Daniela. 25 MR. SHAW: Well, you're crooked, you're 137 1 crooked. I'm sorry. 2 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Next speaker, 3 Daniela. 4 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Maury Thomas. 5 MR. THOMAS: Hello, my name is Maury 6 Thomas, 62 Palisade, Jersey City. 7 Basically I wanted to come before Madam 8 Chairwoman and Commissioners to oppose any 9 development or destruction of the cliffside. The 10 cliffside and the steep slope is protected by Hudson 11 County ordinance and it should remain so. Because 12 the precedence that you are creating here tonight, or 13 possibly in the future, could have far-reaching 14 effects. What's to say the next developer doesn't 15 come along and buy a plot of land and start going 16 down the road and then enter so-called hardships and 17 then get another variance? 18 So I just really would like for you to 19 consider that. 20 And also, you know, the developers may 21 have purchased the property before the ordinance came 22 into effect, so why, at that time, did they not 23 modify their development plans to protect a 24 historical landmark that has been there thousands of 25 years? 138 1 All right? Thank you for your time. 2 Please take that into consideration. 3 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 4 Next. 5 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Jodi Jamieson. 6 MS. JAMIESON: Hi. My name is Jodi 7 Jamieson. I live at 8600 Boulevard East in North 8 Bergen. 9 I'd just like to say that I think it's a 10 travesty to destroy these cliffs. It's probably the 11 most well-known natural landmark in North Jersey and 12 I think it's a shame that in such an urban area we 13 can't maintain this small area of green space. And 14 it's actually vertical green space. 15 And it seems to pose a lot of problems 16 as far as building. I mean holy cow, you know, all 17 of this testing and everything we have to do for 18 about fifty ten-dollar jobs is amazing. 19 I do have some questions. Madam Chair, 20 I'm wondering if Mr. Mehta, who is a Commissioner on 21 the North Bergen Zoning Board, doesn't this present a 22 conflict of interest for him to vote on this 23 application? Since they tend to be able to gain all 24 the financial rewards from it or whatever. Is it 25 normal for somebody who has been ruling on it in the 139 1 town to also rule on it in the -- 2 MR. OURY: I can answer that. We didn't 3 appear before the board of adjustment. This is a 4 planning board application. 5 MS. JAMIESON: I thought it was zoning 6 board. 7 MR. OURY: It is, this is a planning 8 board application. He's not on that board. 9 MS. JAMIESON: I would say it's for you 10 to answer rather than the -- 11 MR. OURY: He wanted to make the facts 12 clear. 13 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Chairwoman, I can 14 clarify one thing. This Board is a volunteer 15 service. We're not getting paid for doing service 16 here as a Commissioner. 17 MS. JAMIESON: You're not getting paid 18 but the town itself will be supposedly making money 19 off of it. 20 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: No. Continue 21 with your question, please. 22 MS. JAMIESON: I have a question for 23 Mr. Bertin. Where does the stormwater drain to 24 during the storm events? 25 MR. BERTIN: After development? 140 1 MS. JAMIESON: Yes. 2 MR. BERTIN: It goes into a drainage 3 system and it connects into the storm drainpipes in 4 River Road and they lead to the Hudson River. 5 MS. JAMIESON: So this is hooking up to 6 county storm sewer system? 7 MR. BERTIN: Yes. 8 MS. JAMIESON: Do they check -- is there 9 going to be checking on toxic soils or anything that 10 they are going to be digging up here that this would 11 be dropping into? 12 MR. BERTIN: No, there's no reason to 13 believe that there was anything toxic on this 14 property. 15 MS. JAMIESON: We have an incident in 16 our town where a county has a park and they are 17 digging it up for a field and now they are 18 discovering there is toxic soil there and that's 19 where they want the kids to play. 20 I have another question. 21 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Thank God the 22 town did find that. 23 MS. JAMIESON: Mr. Bertin, how will 24 Walgreens take deliveries? Is there a loading dock 25 on this? 141 1 MR. BERTIN: No, there's no loading 2 dock. Truck comes, they set up a conveyor system so 3 the material comes out from the truck and right down 4 to the ground level. 5 MS. JAMIESON: No loading dock. 6 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 7 MS. JAMIESON: Thank you. 8 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Please limit your 9 talk to three minutes so we can hear everyone, 10 everyone's questions. 11 Next. 12 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Greg Remaud. 13 MR. REMAUD: Greg Remaud, New York/New 14 Jersey Baykeeper based in Keyport but we have worked 15 20 years in Hudson County, and the Marine 16 Conservation Organization. 17 Madam Chairwoman, Board, thank you for 18 hearing us tonight. The Board of Freeholders in 19 Hudson County, and the State, passed regulations, 20 steep slope regulations and water quality regulations 21 to protect for the public safety, to protect the 22 environment and to protect the quality of life for 23 the communities affected by it. 24 And we heard some impressive testimony 25 today and it answered some of the basic questions, 142 1 but you can have a lot of consultants and attorneys 2 come and make a presentation and you can have 3 political clout, but that doesn't change the primary 4 issue here today. Which is what law and regulation. 5 There's water quality and steep slope 6 laws that are in place from Hudson County and from 7 the State. One of the issues raised but got very 8 little attention today, and I understand why, is the 9 hardship issue. Hardship is a business deal. When 10 you go out and you buy something, you're making a 11 business decision: Will I be able to make a profit, 12 will I not? It's a risk, that's what America is 13 based on, that's capitalism. If you buy swampland in 14 Florida and you can't make money on it, not a 15 hardship, it's a bad idea. 16 So when you buy land that's a steep 17 slope or you buy wetlands in the Meadowlands, when 18 you buy wetlands in the Meadowlands you don't get 19 compensated because you can't develop them. They are 20 not regulated. It's not a hardship when you buy 21 steep slopes that are regulated. You made a bad 22 business decision. That's not what we should be 23 doing in America. 24 The hardship is really a key issue and 25 the one question I'd like to leave you with is, can 143 1 Hudson County Planning Board, can you make this 2 waiver and not put yourself in legal jeopardy? 3 That's I think the critical decision for the Board 4 members and I appreciate everything the Board has 5 done tonight. I leave you with that. 6 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 7 (Applause.) 8 MR. OURY: Madam Chairwoman, can I 9 answer that question? I don't think it was made 10 clear to the gentleman -- 11 MR. REMAUD: This is public hearing, 12 this is not back and forth with Dennis Oury. We 13 listened to him for several hours. Now it's our turn 14 to speak. It's not back and forth with Dennis. 15 MR. OURY: Madam Chairwoman, may I 16 speak? 17 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Want to answer 18 the question? 19 MR. REMAUD: I'd like to rebut whatever 20 he says and everybody else is going to have to wait 21 their turn. 22 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Never mind, 23 Counselor. Forget it. Next speaker, please. 24 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Patricia Whitehouse. 25 MS. WHITEHOUSE: Madam Chairman, my name 144 1 is Patricia S. Whitehouse. I live in Gladstone, New 2 Jersey, and I'm here to represent the New Jersey 3 State Federation of Women's Clubs. I'm the First 4 Vice President and President Elect. 5 New Jersey State Federation of Women's 6 Clubs is a community service organization and it was 7 founded in 1894. It is comprised of membership of 8 10,000 members in 250 clubs around the State of New 9 Jersey. There are member clubs in this area, 59 is 10 the number, with 2,400 members in this particular 11 area of the state. 12 Over the years our members have worked 13 to safeguard New Jersey, all over the state. As 14 early as 1896, we worked to save the Palisades north 15 of the George Washington Bridge. Since that time we 16 have been involved in restoration of the Bel Air 17 Village, we have worked for the establishment of the 18 nature area at Batstow, in the Wharton tract, we have 19 worked to establish the New Jersey Pine Barrens 20 National Monument. And we supported legislation to 21 preserve the Great Swamp National Wildlife Refuge. 22 And recently we were involved in passage of 23 legislation, both at the state and federal level, to 24 protect the Highlands. Which is the source of 25 drinking water for half the residents of New Jersey. 145 1 We the members of the Federation are 2 here tonight to support the preservation of the 3 Palisades cliffs. As mentioned earlier, the Saving 4 the Palisades has been an important issue to our 5 organization beginning in 1896. The Palisades have 6 and should be viewed as one of New Jersey's natural 7 wonders. The cliffs were the first idea for 8 commercial development around the turn of the 9 century. There were thoughts for development and 10 they wanted to blast cliffs to pave the roads of New 11 York City. When the members of our Federation 12 learned of this they, along with the New Jersey and 13 New York legislatures, formed a permanent commission 14 to obtain the Interstate Park Commission. The women 15 continued their fight by forming a Palisades League 16 to raise funds for the project. Through these 17 efforts they were able to halt this destruction. 18 At that time, the then governor, 19 Voorhees, said to us, ladies, this is not possible to 20 do. He had been trying for ten years to find a way 21 to save the Palisades. 22 In the end we were able to do that with 23 our partners. 24 We're here tonight to urge that there be 25 no variances granted for this development. We oppose 146 1 all development of Palisades areas south of the 2 George Washington Bridge. We're not opposed to 3 development in general, but we're opposed to this 4 development. 5 Thank you, Madam Chairman. 6 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 7 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Deirdre Berry. 8 MS. BERRY: Deirdre Berry, 512-39th 9 Street, Union City. 10 My question would probably be for 11 Mr. Bertin. Was there a Stormwater Management Plan 12 submitted? 13 MR. BERTIN: Yes. 14 MS. BERRY: And development permit 15 taken? 16 MR. BERTIN: I'm not sure what that 17 means. We're applying for permits and approvals. 18 MS. BERRY: And a couple of more 19 questions. How big is the berm? 20 MR. BERTIN: The berm that's out there 21 now? I'd say it's six feet, maybe, to eight feet 22 high, and it's probably ten feet wide at the base. 23 MS. BERRY: And that you created, 24 correct? 25 MR. BERTIN: Well, some of that berm -- 147 1 I didn't create anything, I'm the engineer. 2 MS. BERRY: I meant your project. 3 MR. BERTIN: I don't have that power. 4 But, yeah, the berm was reconfigured 5 along the base to protect River Road from any kind of 6 construction that took place. 7 MS. BERRY: Okay. Do you have to come 8 up with any water facility as to the drainage after 9 you take your soil away? 10 MR. BERTIN: Yes, yes, there is a 11 drainage plan for during construction as well as what 12 the final plan will be after construction. 13 MS. BERRY: Are those plans part of the 14 public record? 15 MR. BERTIN: Yes. 16 MS. BERRY: One last question. Your 17 boring at the top, does that mean you have to go down 18 180 feet? 19 MS. MAHLE: Yes. 20 MS. BERRY: That's my last question, 21 thank you. 22 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 23 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Kathie Pontus. 24 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Please try not to 25 repeat the same question. 148 1 MS. PONTUS: No, mine is totally 2 different. 512-39th Street, Kathie Pontus. 3 With the time constraints I'm going to 4 try to narrow down what I have here. 5 First of all, I've read the County's 6 Master Plan and the Land Regulations. I understand 7 that the definition of a steep slope is any slope 8 that is equal to or greater than 20 percent as 9 measured over any minimum run of ten feet and are 10 determined based on contour intervals of two feet or 11 less. 12 I guess that's right. 13 My research of those documents has 14 discovered there are many references, environmental, 15 natural resources, historic preservation, steep slope 16 protection and concerns for the visual and aesthetic 17 features. 18 That would bring me to questions that I 19 would have for Mr. Marks. 20 Have you examined the proposed plans? 21 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Go ahead. Are 22 you through? 23 MS. PONTUS: There are like three or 24 four of them. I just asked the question. That's the 25 first one. Has he examined the proposed plans? 149 1 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Is she asking a 2 question? 3 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: She's asking 4 a question for Mr. Marks. 5 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Mr. Marks. She's 6 asking Mr. Marks a question. If he can answer he 7 will; if he can't, he will not. 8 MR. CALVANICO: Let's just swear 9 Mr. Marks in so that the record is clear. 10 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Give us the 11 questions. 12 MS. PONTUS: I want to know if he's 13 examined the plans, I want to know if his job, as the 14 County Planner, is to make sure that the development 15 projects are consistent with County plans and 16 regulations as in Master Plan and Land Regulations. 17 I want to know if this project is consistent with the 18 Master Plan and Land Regulations. And the last one 19 was, if the County Planning Board wanted to, could 20 they waive the County rules? 21 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: The Planning 22 Board Commissioners will decide that. We'll decide 23 that. 24 MS. PONTUS: And the other questions he 25 can't answer? 150 1 S T E P H E N M A R K S, having been 2 duly sworn, testifies as follows: 3 Madam Chair, that was a lot of -- 4 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Madam Chair, if 5 I could, we got rules here, three minutes. That's 6 going to take -- excuse me, that's going to take -- 7 if he answers it correctly, it may take five minutes 8 or it may take ten minutes. 9 MS. PONTUS: I think the first one is a 10 yes, the second is a yes or no, the third is a yes or 11 no and the fourth is a yes or no. 12 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Answer the 13 question. It's a public hearing. 14 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, can you 15 restate -- 16 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: We haven't voted 17 on the questions yet, so. . . 18 MS. PONTUS: Should I repeat them? 19 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Chairwoman, as the 20 County Planner, it is Mr. Steve Marks' job and 21 responsibility to review these things and, at the 22 same time, we have a County Engineer who does all 23 these things, and as Planning Board Commissioners, 24 it's our duty that we're reviewing all the documents 25 and we're still in the process of reviewing the 151 1 documents. 2 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Right, we're 3 still working on it. 4 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: His job, he already 5 did that. 6 MS. PONTUS: He's asking for the public 7 record. He needs to answer the questions on public 8 record. 9 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Have her ask the 10 question and let him answer, that's it. These are 11 easy questions; they are yes or no. 12 DIRECTOR MARKS: Can you repeat the 13 first question? I'm sorry. 14 MS. PONTUS: Have you examined the 15 proposed plans? 16 DIRECTOR MARKS: Yes. 17 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: And your job, 18 as the County Planner, is to make sure that 19 development projects are consistent with County plans 20 and regulation? 21 MR. OURY: I would interpose an 22 objection to the question. I don't think Mr. Marks' 23 position is as County -- 24 MS. PONTUS: Objection. This is public 25 portion. 152 1 MR. OURY: Think the Chairwoman is 2 running the meeting. My objection on the record is 3 that -- 4 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Just because he 5 yells louder doesn't make him right. 6 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Mr. Oury, answer 7 the question. 8 MR. OURY: Can I place my objection on 9 the record? 10 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Yes, Counselor. 11 MR. OURY: I don't think Mr. Marks' 12 position, and I can be corrected, is the County 13 Planner. If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected. 14 MS. PONTUS: Take the thing about him 15 being the planner out. Is that his job? 16 MR. OURY: That's what I'm getting to. 17 I don't think he's the County Planner. If he's not 18 the County Planner, I would object to the question 19 because it requires planning testimony. That's all, 20 that's my objection. 21 MS. PONTUS: I'll take out the two words 22 County Planner so I could get an answer. 23 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Somebody should 24 know. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Could you repeat the 153 1 question? 2 MS. PONTUS: Is it your job to make sure 3 that development projects are consistent with County 4 plans and regulations? 5 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: That will be 6 answered. Yes, it will be. They will be answered. 7 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, as the 8 Division Chief of the Division of Planning, and the 9 Planning Board Secretary, yes, the Division of 10 Planning is supposed to, per the Administrative Code 11 as adopted by the County Executive and the Freeholder 12 Board, the Division is supposed to ensure that site 13 plans and subdivision applications are consistent 14 with the County Master Plan and Land Development 15 Regulations. 16 MS. PONTUS: Is this project consistent 17 with the County's master plan and development 18 regulations? 19 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Yes, we work 20 together. It will be consistent. We work together 21 on it. Thank you. 22 Next. 23 COMMISSIONER NG: The three minutes, 24 that we established in the beginning, are we going to 25 continue three minutes? 154 1 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Yes, three 2 minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER NG: This one was like ten 4 minutes. 5 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: I said this in 6 the beginning. 7 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Maureen, I can't read 8 the last name, 263-5th Street, Jersey City. 9 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: She had to go 10 to another meeting. 11 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Sam Pesin. 12 MR. PESIN: Sam Pesin, 75 Liberty 13 Avenue, Jersey City. 14 As part of the Save the Palisades Cliffs 15 Coalition, I oppose this cliffside development. It 16 seems very wrong to destroy, to desecrate, to 17 commercialize a natural treasure which I understand 18 is 200 million years old and which it was mentioned 19 tonight, there are only four areas like this, four 20 places like this in the whole world. 21 So it should be preserved for future 22 generations. And it does not seem responsible, it 23 actually seems inconceivable that this Board could 24 vote tonight before you have fully reviewed 25 everything. That just seems like the right thing to 155 1 do is to study and review everything before you vote. 2 There's no rush. 3 Now, for Mr. Jasek, are you sworn in? I 4 have some brief questions with yes-or-no answers. 5 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: He's not here. 6 Mr. Jasek is not here this evening. 7 MR. PESIN: I have some questions and 8 I'll address them to Mr. Marks or anyone here who can 9 answer these brief questions. 10 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Why isn't he 11 here? 12 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: That's a good 13 question. Why isn't Mr. Jasek here? 14 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Because we have 15 another engineer with us. 16 MR. PESIN: I have some quick questions 17 for some yes-or-no answers. 18 Did the New Jersey Department of 19 Environmental Protection require Hudson County to 20 prepare and submit a Stormwater Management Plan for 21 county roads and drainage facilities? 22 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Yes, we did 23 that. 24 MR. PESIN: Was the stormwater plan 25 approved by the NJDEP? 156 1 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Yes. 2 MR. PESIN: Did your office prepare a 3 Wastewater Management Plan for Hudson County? 4 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: A consultant 5 was hired by us and it was prepared and submitted. 6 MR. PESIN: Was that plan approved by 7 the NJDEP? 8 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Yes. 9 MR. PESIN: Doesn't Hudson County have 10 to abide by the DEP's rules involving stormwater 11 management and wastewater management? 12 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Yes. 13 MR. PESIN: Thank you. 14 So I'll just conclude by saying that 15 these cliffs don't just belong to North Bergen or 16 Hudson County, they really belong to New Jersey and 17 to America. They are a natural treasure and they 18 deserve protection. 19 Thank you. 20 (Applause.) 21 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Jeremy Rabin. 22 MR. RABIN: Jeremy Rabin, 7004 Boulevard 23 East. 24 I'd like to begin by saying that I 25 personally, as a member of the public, object to the 157 1 way this public portion is being handled. 2 (Applause.) 3 The last time we were told that Mr. Oury 4 had the right to cross-examine the public when they 5 made statements or questions and this time we're 6 being told that there is an artificial three minute 7 rule, that we're only allowed to speak for. Even if 8 we have relevant questions and there's back and 9 forth, we're still supposed to be held to three 10 minutes. 11 That seems pretty ridiculous, especially 12 considering that the public is expected to do some of 13 the job of this Board. Because we're supposed to be 14 advocating for the cliffs, for this country, for the 15 things that we are owners of. And the Board's 16 supposed to be somewhat neutral in that. So you 17 should be welcoming our questions and our doing this 18 job. Provided we're not asking the same question 19 over and over again. 20 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Correct. 21 MR. RABIN: We were told that we were 22 going to be given a chance to question the witnesses. 23 And three witnesses were brought up here. That would 24 give me one minute to question each one of them. And 25 that assumes a back and forth and possibly a series 158 1 of questions. It is quite possible that a well 2 informed citizen could have ten, fifteen questions to 3 ask each of these witnesses. 4 So to expect that we're going to be able 5 to do this in three minutes, I think a situation has 6 been created where, by having all three witnesses 7 testify, when such a large public turnout is here, 8 means that this should really be extended for 9 additional hearings so that the public will have an 10 opportunity to have full input. Otherwise, this 11 situation will look like a fix was put in to get this 12 rushed through. 13 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: What is your 14 question, sir? 15 MR. RABIN: I've heard testimony that 16 the cliffs are going to be preserved in their 17 appearance and yet apparently netting is going to be 18 used. I believe I was told -- in the previous 19 hearing I heard that it was 30 percent of the cliff 20 might even end up needing netting. And that future 21 netting could be required as additional instability 22 might occur. So we could imagine, 30 years from now, 23 60 years from now, quite a bit more netting. 24 And we know what Churchill looks like 25 and that netting is permanent, it's not something 159 1 that is going to be there for a few days. It's kind 2 of a laughing stock and a tragedy. And to approve 3 something like this, with that plan for netting, is I 4 think totally inappropriate. 5 I'm also very concerned about the water 6 runoff and rock falling and I think -- who will be 7 responsible if a rock does come down 30 years from 8 now and crushes some people or a car or something 9 like that? It won't be Mr. Bertin who will probably 10 be held responsible for that. 11 So, whatever the ratables are that this 12 will generate, I think you need to consider what 13 happens in a Churchill-type landslide, mudslide, 14 falling rocks and other things. 15 We just heard that the boring device 16 that was used became unstable because of rain and it 17 created a dangerous situation. These are the same 18 people who are telling us that they are going to 19 evaluate the rocks for their stability but they 20 weren't able to evaluate the soil that they put the 21 drill on. And then the rain came down. We're told 22 that they didn't see rain coming down from the cliff, 23 yet I wonder how the ground became so saturated that 24 their equipment became so unstable that it couldn't 25 be used, that it was dangerous and they ended up 160 1 having to work from the top of the cliff which 2 obviously generated expense for them. 3 So I think, obviously when you're 4 dealing with nature, when you're dealing with forces, 5 with storms, rainstorms that could go on for days 6 sometimes, predicting how these will happen with the 7 certainty that I've heard tonight is not realistic 8 and the chances are there will be some very serious 9 problems, if not soon, 20, 30 years from now. 10 And I think this Board should not 11 approve this project given the descriptions that have 12 been made so far of how this is going to be done. 13 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you very 14 much. 15 (Applause.) 16 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Janet Glass. 17 MS. GLASS: 8700 Boulevard East, North 18 Bergen. 19 I'm a North Bergen resident and this is 20 a North Bergen issue. Actually it's a Hudson County 21 issue as well. But actually it's an issue that goes 22 far beyond that. As we know, it's been referred to 23 many times, this is a national treasure and the 24 people in this room are the guardians of this 25 national treasure. 161 1 And how is our stewardship going? It's 2 involving bolting and excavating and netting. Is 3 this what we consider our good guardianship of the 4 cliffs, of these precious cliffs that we have? I 5 don't think so. 6 I think that the question is not can we 7 stabilize the cliffs, I think the question is should 8 we be stabilizing the cliffs. 9 (Applause.) 10 There's a group called the "Protect the 11 Palisades Cliffs" group and I have in my hand 12 signatures of 2,500 people who feel the same way that 13 I do. 14 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 15 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Helen. 16 MS. MANOGUE: Helen Manogue, 904 17 Jefferson Street, Hoboken. 18 I know, again -- you're looking 19 mystified, Madam Chairman; Hoboken, what's happening 20 here? Actually it's happening all over; not just in 21 North Bergen, not just in Hudson County, it's 22 happening all over the state. And when you take a 23 look at some of these signatures, you're going to 24 have on these petitions, they are coming from all 25 over the state because people are very concerned 162 1 about this. 2 One of the things they want to have done 3 is that the steep slope regulation be upheld by this 4 Board. 5 (Applause.) 6 Now, I want to congratulate, first of 7 all, I want to congratulate all of you for last year 8 having approved that regulation. That was very 9 farsighted of you to do that. 10 (Applause.) 11 What we're talking about tonight, what 12 we're talking about tonight is, are you going to 13 continue to uphold that regulation that you have put 14 on the books very carefully and very wisely? 15 We have already seen what's happened 16 when regulations are not followed. All you have to 17 do is look at the financial crisis in the United 18 States and a lot of that problem comes because 19 regulations were not followed. 20 We're asking you tonight to follow that 21 regulation that's been put in place for a purpose. 22 The State put it there, the County put it there, it's 23 on the books. Uphold it. I think that is your duty 24 to do this evening. 25 Another thing I just want to point out 163 1 that at least I heard tonight for the first time of 2 something called the PMK study. And a lot of the 3 testimony that was given -- well, actually Mr. Oury 4 gave the testimony, but the PMK study, we have never 5 heard of that before. We haven't had a chance to 6 review it. We don't know what's in it. We have no 7 way of asking questions on it because we don't know 8 what's in it. 9 We also understand that there's another 10 Hudson County study that is being done, it's being 11 done by the Medina engineering firm and it is 12 specifically on this project. And in great point, it 13 has to do with wastewater management and other 14 issues. That study has not been produced yet and we 15 feel that you really should not be making a decision 16 on this property until you get a chance to see that 17 study and we in the general public get a chance to 18 see it as well. 19 So I don't think you are ready to make a 20 decision on this this evening. I think there's 21 plenty of unanswered questions here and studies that 22 are outstanding. 23 So I beg to you wait for this other 24 Hudson County study to come up and I also would 25 request that when that comes in, that we in the 164 1 general public get an opportunity to see it, to 2 review it, and to have time to come and ask questions 3 on it. 4 So I appreciate your time. Thank you. 5 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Betty Mendieta. 6 MS. MENDIETA: Betty, M-E-N-D-I-E-T-A. 7 North Bergen, 7306 Cottage Avenue. 8 As a young adult that's grown up in 9 North Bergen my entire life, I've seen cliffs and 10 appreciate their beauty and understand the nature and 11 the gravity of this decision, but I'm also speaking 12 on behalf of the fact that I've seen that whole area 13 grow into nothing but productive things over the past 14 years, and realize that it does cause a lot of 15 questions and a lot of concerns, but as we have heard 16 tonight, there has been people that know what they 17 are talking about and can prove that their methods of 18 protecting the cliffs is something that can be fixed. 19 So even though there are concerns, there's ways to 20 fix it, ways to preserve it, and not ruin it to 21 pieces as it's being seemed to be done. 22 I think it provides a lot of 23 opportunities and it has caused over the years, like 24 I've said, to make that whole area beautiful. River 25 Road has only gotten much better than what it used to 165 1 be and even though I may be wrong, I do appreciate 2 cliffs but I do think that it provides good things 3 for the town and for the county. 4 (Applause.) 5 Thank you. 6 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Anthony, 1267 Fourth 7 Street, North Bergen. 8 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Not here, no. 9 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Frank Pestana. 10 MR. PESTANA: Frank Pestana, 1111-84th 11 Street, North Bergen. 12 I just wanted to say that what is being 13 proposed here is a much improvement over what's there 14 and was there. It was an old, dilapidated warehouse, 15 now there's a pile of rubble and debris there and 16 what could have been there is an eight-story building 17 which would have been a much bigger impact to the 18 town. 19 This is basically a low impact project. 20 It has no impact to the school system because it has 21 no kids coming in, just stores. It has minimal 22 impact to the sewer system because, as we said, the 23 flow coming out of the stores is much less than would 24 be from residential. It shouldn't generate as much 25 traffic as a highrise would. It won't obstruct the 166 1 views from the people above, which was stated before 2 as well. The Palisades is still going to be visible. 3 It's only going to be, I believe, 30 feet high. And 4 this is all being done in conjunction with the Town 5 of North Bergen and the Mayor. 6 North Bergen has been fiscally sound and 7 it's because of all the good work that is being done 8 by the mayor and the commissioners and their staff. 9 As you can see, they have been working together with 10 the -- (interruption) -- excuse me -- they have been 11 working together with the engineers and everybody to 12 try to make this a successful project. They are 13 willing to do whatever it takes to make it a 14 successful project as you've heard from everybody 15 here. 16 I don't see how this is going to affect 17 Boulevard East. There were statements before about 18 Boulevard East collapsing. I mean there's a rail 19 tunnel going underneath from the west side of North 20 Bergen all the way through. Is that going to cave 21 in? What are they talking about there? 22 Also what I wanted to say is what these 23 stores are going to provide are amenities to all the 24 other development that's been created there. Right 25 now, if anybody needs to get -- go to the bank or 167 1 anything, they have to go all the way up to 2 Bergenline or Boulevard East, as well as somebody 3 before said it's going to create minimal ten-dollar 4 jobs. Well, there's a lot of people out there today 5 that need a job so maybe they think that's not a big 6 deal but it's a job. 7 (Applause.) 8 That's pretty much all I got to say. As 9 you could see, not everybody here signed up to speak 10 but we have a pretty good crowd here in favor of it. 11 I would say it's probably over 60 people here in 12 favor of the project. 13 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 14 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: James Nehira. 15 MR. NEHIRA: James Nehira, I reside at 16 3665 Meadow Lane, North Bergen. 17 I'm here because I'm a taxpayer and I 18 represent a lot of people from my district, which is 19 71 of North Bergen. I'm here tonight because I would 20 feel ashamed if I didn't help lower taxes and push 21 this project through. I feel our mayor has taken the 22 necessary steps to assure the safety of the Palisades 23 and the surrounding area. In today's times we need 24 ratables and I feel this project should pass to help 25 the thousands of homeowners who reside in North 168 1 Bergen. 2 This is a progressive community, North 3 Bergen. You see the signs posted coming into our 4 city and this development should be passed because 5 the hospital is right across the street, they could 6 use the pharmacy right across the street from 7 Walgreens. If anybody has ever been in the hospital 8 or had to go get medicine, you'd have to go on 9 holidays, the Walgreens is open, otherwise they'd 10 have to go to Fort Lee. It would be nice and 11 convenient to go right across the street. 12 That's the only area that should be 13 developed because it's just a rundown area. 14 And as far as the netting on the hill, 15 that will all grow back. Whatever you disturb there, 16 the whole environment will all come back. It's no 17 different from a forest fire that eliminates the 18 whole forest but it grows back. 19 Thank you. 20 (Applause.) 21 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Cathy Somick. 22 MS. SOMICK: Catherine Somick, 23 S-O-M-I-C-K, 96 Palisade Avenue. 24 Unlike a lot of the people who came here 25 to talk against the project, I've grown up in North 169 1 Bergen all my life, over 50 years. I played on the 2 cliffs, I played down by the river, I fished in the 3 river. 4 Now I still live in North Bergen. I own 5 a business, I own three residences in North Bergen 6 and I'm a taxpayer. And this project will bring in 7 ratables. Not only on that piece of land but all 8 down that strip there was a warehouse for clothing, 9 there was a soda factory and they are complaining 10 about a piece of land that we're not digging into the 11 cliff. There's a piece of land that we can use and 12 get ratables to help the taxpayers in North Bergen. 13 Our County taxes alone are making every household go 14 up over $200. 15 Now, for me, that becomes a burden. 16 Now, the other problem is also that 17 there is a hospital right across the street. If you 18 look at the pictures of the before they develop, you 19 see a bus stop there. Not everyone owns a car who 20 has to go to the hospital. For those people to stand 21 there and in that disgrace, that mess that is over 22 there, and have to worry about rats running out or 23 other vermin running out while they are waiting for a 24 bus to leave the hospital, and then they have to come 25 back, it's a disgrace. This project will give them a 170 1 place to go if they want to get their coffee. Once 2 the hospital cafeteria closes, there's no place for 3 these people to go. 4 Not only that, like they said, on a 5 Sunday, on a holiday, if you come out of that 6 hospital, a lot of North Bergen use that hospital, 7 you have to go all the way to Fort Lee to get a 8 prescription. This is so convenient not only for 9 those who drive, but for those who don't drive, it is 10 such a convenience. 11 I just ask that you vote for this 12 project. I think it's a great project. I think 13 every precaution has been taken to protect the 14 Palisades and to give the people in North Bergen some 15 ratables and a nice place to go. 16 Thank you. 17 (Applause.) 18 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Paul Eisenman or 19 Eisenmark. 20 MR. EISENMAN: Good evening. Paul 21 Eisenman, E-I-S-E-N-M-A-N, 250 Gorge Road, Cliffside 22 Park. 23 I'm Chair of Bergen Grass Roots. We're 24 a good government group located in Bergen County. We 25 have got a big piece of the Palisades in our county 171 1 as well. And our organization is very concerned 2 about the future of this 200-million-year-old marvel. 3 We don't understand why so much has to be done to 4 prepare a simple piece of property just to get it to 5 meet such very strict and needed regulations. We 6 think there must be land elsewhere that would not 7 interfere with I think the most well-known thing 8 about New Jersey. In the United States of America, I 9 think what everybody connects with New Jersey is the 10 Palisades. And maybe the Sopranos challenged that 11 but I really don't think so. It's here, it's always 12 been here, it's a tremendous facility and we really 13 think that it should be preserved and we're going to 14 throw our weight behind the organizations that are 15 opposing this project. 16 Thank you very much. 17 (Applause.) 18 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Patricia Bartoli. 19 MS. BARTOLI: Good evening. Patricia 20 Bartoli, 1114-80th Street, North Bergen. 21 I wanted to say that I am in favor of 22 this project and I also am a member of the North 23 Bergen Planning Board where I did vote for this 24 project. 25 And after re-listening to all the 172 1 opposition and all the expert geotechnical 2 engineering, I still stand by my decision and it has 3 been reinforced that I voted for this project. It's 4 good for North Bergen and I hope the Hudson County 5 Planning Board does the same. 6 Thank you. 7 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: John Lombardi. 8 MR. LOMBARDI: My name is John Lombardi. 9 I live at 1451-44th Street. 10 I don't think there's nothing wrong with 11 putting that business there. It will generate good 12 taxes and don't seem to be no problem holding up the 13 Stonehedge on the cliffs and the Galaxy apartments. 14 So I don't think it will have an effect on that. 15 Thank you. 16 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 17 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Dennis Jaslow, 18 1606-40th Street. 19 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Hi, how you 20 doing? J-A-S-L-O-W. 21 I'm a lifelong resident of North Bergen. 22 I've been involved, I've been an activist. I'm in 23 favor of the project. There's tough decisions that 24 have to be made. We have a bad economy, we can use 25 the ratables. It creates other jobs and ten-dollar 173 1 jobs, there's construction jobs, there's plenty of 2 work for people to go to work. It's a very -- excuse 3 me. I lost train of thought there. 4 That's all. 5 Thank you. 6 (Applause.) 7 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Bruce Dunning. 8 MR. DUNNING: Good evening. My name is 9 Bruce Dunning. I live at 1620 Manhattan Avenue, 10 Union City. I'm a recent arrival in Hudson County. 11 I've only been here about four years but I'm a native 12 New Jerseyan. 13 My question is that there's a law, 14 apparently, on the books, about steep slopes. And is 15 there -- could you explain to me how you can vote a 16 waiver to this rule which I believe is not only at 17 the County law but a State regulation? What is the 18 process for creating a waiver? 19 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Director, can you 20 answer that? Go ahead, Tom. 21 MR. CALVANICO: Madam Chairlady, the 22 statute, the regulations, New Jersey Administrative 23 Code, provides the specifics for the waiver. It's in 24 the statute that a waiver could be approved. It's 25 right in the statute. In the Administrative Code. 174 1 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Explain. I 2 mean -- 3 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Rita Giacomelli. 4 MS. GIACOMELLI: My name is Rita 5 Giacomelli. I've been a cliff dweller my entire 6 life. I played on the cliffs, I've watched the 7 development over the years, over 50 years. We're an 8 urban area, there's no doubt about that. Controlled 9 development is a good thing. I see it as there's 10 these little pockets left on the cliffs. The cliffs 11 are beautiful, I understand that, but there are a lot 12 of things to weigh. Human need. 13 The project itself is a very small 14 project. If you are choosing between a ten-story 15 building and a couple of little stores at the base of 16 the cliffs, I really don't think it's going to do 17 that much damage or the way it's portrayed as damage. 18 We're cleaning up the cliffs, we're 19 securing them, we're actually doing something better 20 for the cliffs. And I'm all in favor of this 21 project. I have lived in this area very long and I 22 think it's a good thing for North Bergen and the 23 county. 24 (Applause.) 25 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: Carmen Acosta. 175 1 Janice Lombardi. 2 Cathy Friedman. 3 MS. FRIEDMAN: Cathy Friedman, 8550 4 Boulevard East. 5 I just had a thought and that was it 6 seems like the town is spending a lot of money on 7 engineering fees, legal fees, other professional 8 fees. And I'm wondering if we didn't build this 9 strip center, if they could be taken those fees and 10 cleaned up that area, given that people who have 11 lived here for a long time feel that it's an eyesore. 12 And I'm wondering why the funds that 13 have been expended professionally, the tax dollars 14 that people are very concerned about, could not have 15 been diverted to that cause? 16 Additionally, I feel, just from 17 listening this evening, that many of Mr. Oury's 18 comments have been a bit broad, assumptive and 19 simplistic. 20 He referred to the County report which 21 did not mention the property in question tonight. 22 The County report talked about whether or not the 23 Palisades needed buffering. And I believe my 24 conclusion, based on the dialogue between 25 Mr. Arencibia, the planner, was that Mr. Oury drew an 176 1 erroneous conclusion that the County thought all was 2 well with this particular property. I believe that 3 Mr. Arencibia, excuse me for mispronouncing your 4 name, clarified that. 5 I feel oftentimes people ask Mr. Oury 6 questions and once they asked him questions he was 7 able to go back and clarify or correct what he said. 8 And if he would not have been asked those questions, 9 then perhaps that clarification would not have 10 happened. 11 Mr. Oury also simplistically states that 12 if there's a problem with the cliff, then it's a 13 matter of just finding the right technology to fix 14 it. Well, what happens if NASA hasn't invented that 15 particular solution to the problem yet? 16 As mentioned before, the geotechnical 17 professionals, that we have here, had to abort hole 18 #2, as already mentioned, because the intense rain 19 that we had. And the hail that was mentioned by 20 Mr. Fitzgibbons, we've had some anomalies in our 21 weather pattern. Not only anomalies but you 22 mentioned the hundred-year this and that and the 23 hundred years, those numbers keep changing. 24 Several people again referenced hole #2 25 in that there's just totally unexpected things that 177 1 we have no idea about. 2 As it is, we have to bring in a unique 3 drill that only exists out in Utah or something like 4 that, just to do the boring tests. 5 We also talked -- this gentleman talked 6 about drainage and he talked about how they have 7 these big bins, is how I visualized it, where the 8 water is going to go in. The way that's going to 9 work is it's going to regulate the flow into River 10 Road. 11 My question, if River Road is already 12 flooding, when is it going to -- what's the capacity 13 of those drainage bins? And when is the water going 14 to be able to flow into it? On the next sunny day? 15 I mean if it's already flooding to begin with, what's 16 going to -- how effective are those drainage bins and 17 how effective is that mechanism if it's already 18 dammed up and blocked? 19 An economic burden, that phrase has been 20 thrown around that evening. I think it's an 21 oxymoron, just as the Baykeeper mentioned. The 22 amount of money to stabilize sounds like an 23 unbelievable, possibly infinite amount. Again those 24 are tax dollars that have to go toward the defining 25 whether or not the project should go forward. 178 1 People talk about ratables. What are 2 the ratables? Nobody has defined that. Who is 3 accountable for the upkeep of the stabilization? We 4 have asked this question a zillion times by different 5 people and I still don't think the answer is clear. 6 So I apologize for asking it again. 7 What happens if the developers go 8 bankrupt? During the project, during the development 9 of the project, at any stage afterwards? Bank of 10 America, what, they are getting funding right now 11 from the government. Who says that they are the 12 appropriate tenant for there? You talked about 13 Starbucks. Their problem. You talk about Walgreens. 14 Think there is a CVS up on Bergenline Avenue and I 15 think they are open 24/7. 16 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: No. 17 MS. FRIEDMAN: Then I stand corrected. 18 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: There's no 19 room. 20 MS. FRIEDMAN: I could ride my bike or I 21 could walk, but you talked about people who take the 22 bus so I understand that. 23 There was an error made initially, I 24 think it's like a 700 percent error, and it talked 25 about there were 700,000 cubic yards that had to be 179 1 removed and that number has now been changed to a 2 hundred thousand. So what happens if we make a 3 700 percent error on something else that's a little 4 bit more of a problem? 5 (Applause.) 6 Again, I just feel that you talked about 7 the performance bonds and the maintenance bonds. 8 Again, several people asked the question, several 9 times. It's not clear. A lot of this is just not 10 clear. The liability, the accountability, what is 11 the economic benefit? Nobody has defined the 12 economic benefit. 13 So I don't think you should do the 14 project. 15 Thank you. 16 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 17 Counselor, it's 10:30. 18 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Holler a little 19 bit. I want it closed down. 20 MR. CALVANICO: Madam Chairlady, so that 21 the record is clear, the County Planning Board by law 22 is required that the meeting be adjourned at 10:30 23 unless it's extended by majority vote of those 24 present. 25 So it's just past 10:30. So we should 180 1 take some action at this point. 2 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: A lot of public 3 already had to go home. There should be another 4 hearing. 5 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: No more speakers. 6 We're finished with speakers. 7 MS. CIAMMARUCONI: I have one more 8 person listed to speak. 9 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Make a motion 10 to extend the meeting. 11 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Second. 12 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: For how long? 13 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Excuse me. One 14 more time. 15 Madam Chair, you need to tell that 16 gentleman not to speak out. 17 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: I'll cover the 18 ten minutes. My name is Zivkovic -- 19 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Is your name on 20 the list? 21 MR. ZIVKOVIC: Yes, I signed. 22 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Make a motion 23 to extend the meeting for a half an hour. 24 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: I second it. 25 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, on a 181 1 motion, by Commissioner Fitzgibbons, to extend the 2 meeting for a half-hour, seconded by Commissioner 3 Holloway. 4 Commissioner Arencibia? 5 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Aye. 6 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 7 Fitzgibbons? 8 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 9 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Holloway? 10 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 11 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Mehta? 12 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Aye. 13 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Munoz? 14 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Aye. 15 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner NG? 16 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 17 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairwoman Avagliano? 18 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Aye. 19 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, the motion 20 passes. 21 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: It's done. 22 MR. ZIVKOVIC: Can I say my name? 23 Zivkovic, 50-1 Bergen Ridge Road, North Bergen, New 24 Jersey. Z-I-V-K-O-V-I-C. 25 I am glad that our mayor hired the 182 1 public relations person, we can see tonight, and I 2 just want to say my people from North Bergen that no 3 one is opposing any development in North Bergen 4 because of our high taxes and situation the country 5 is. And if you are going to the ten percent 6 unemployment, we'll accept any possibility that 7 people having to work. 8 But I will ask and beg this Planning 9 Board, and I can see that some reasonable people are 10 here, before you're approving this project, please, 11 please verify expertise of Johnson Soils. And I can 12 prove for 12 years what they are doing, how great 13 expertise it is, and as I understand, Mr. Bart 14 (phonetic) is the new owner, from '95 or something 15 like this. If you see Bergen Ridge, if you see 16 Walgreens and if you see Churchill. 17 I'm from Bergen Ridge and you have -- 18 ten days ago, the boulders are coming because of 19 rain. Not rocks, boulders. And it is such a 20 dangerous on public road, entrance to Bergen Ridge, 21 next to the round building, that everyone, everyone 22 need to come to see how poorly it's done Bergen 23 Ridge -- I'm sorry? No, no. 24 Fortunately we have nothing approved for 25 Township of North Bergen to the builder. And about 183 1 responsibility, who is responsibility after they 2 leave? I can tell you, responsibility is burdened on 3 the people who are staying there. They are giving 4 good report and they are running like crazy. 5 Johnson Soils gave perfect report about 6 cliff because they were working for Michael Berry 7 (phonetic.) As soon as transition was over, problem 8 started. And Johnson Soils is still the one who is 9 doing our cliff report, for 12 years. 10 So they are involved in the Bergen 11 Ridge. 12 It is disaster, it is the lost project. 13 And fortunately I'm foreigner. I became citizen 14 20 years ago, I didn't know anything about North 15 Bergen, about cliff, about anything. This Bergen 16 Ridge is lost. We don't have money. It's millions 17 of dollars. Please take this in consideration before 18 decision tonight about expertise people and lawyers 19 that coming in front of this Planning Board. 20 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Do you have to 21 sum up in any way? 22 MR. OURY: I have a couple comments, 23 because I was unable to address those before so I'd 24 like to do it in my summation. 25 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: There are still 184 1 more members of the public who want to speak. 2 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Was your name on 3 the list? 4 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: I came here 5 after the list went around and you said earlier that 6 we would be able to come up after all the speakers on 7 the list spoke. 8 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Come to the 9 microphone. 10 MS. HOFFMAN: My name is Becky Hoffman, 11 154 Ogden Avenue, Jersey City. I'm also the head of 12 the Riverview Neighborhood Association and our 13 association drafted the legislation for the steep 14 slope protects that are in place in Jersey City. 15 This hearing, this so-called hearing, 16 and you're trying to, you know, continue it when many 17 people had to leave because of the late hour, is not 18 appropriate. And you did not provide time for people 19 to question the experts from the public. 20 There were also many, many reports and 21 borings, test borings and other information that are 22 required for you to make an appropriate decision 23 here. And to take a vote tonight would be an error 24 because you would not be doing it based on proper 25 information and the public should have an opportunity 185 1 to review that information, bring in experts if they 2 choose to, and present that information to the Board. 3 Because this project affects the entire county not 4 just North Bergen. 5 The County passed and the State has 6 steep slope regulations. It's not gray, it says 7 development is prohibited on steep slopes. There is 8 not a lot of gray there, it says prohibited. 9 And I ask you to not even take a vote, 10 to adjourn this hearing until you get the information 11 that has been told that you will have, additional 12 borings, additional analysis, and that the public 13 have an opportunity to review Medina's report and all 14 the other reports, present our own experts and then 15 take a vote at a later date. 16 Thank you. 17 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Thank you. 18 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Good evening. 19 Charlene Burke, 56 Duncan Avenue, Jersey City. 20 Earlier, there was a question of Stephen 21 Marks regarding his review of the plans and perhaps 22 whether they, in fact, complied with Hudson County 23 Master Plan and other regulations. 24 I have in my hand, that I would like to 25 enter as an exhibit, a memo that went to all of you, 186 1 from Stephen Marks, that speaks about these issues 2 that whether it in fact complies with the master 3 plan. 4 And it does say, his recommendation is 5 that it is to deny it because it is not consistent 6 with the Hudson County Master Plan, the Hudson County 7 Land Development Regulations or the State Water 8 Quality Management Planning Rules protecting steep 9 slopes. 10 In addition to many other notations, 11 which I'm sure all of you received this and had read 12 it and certainly I would like to enter it as an 13 exhibit for the public record, please. 14 MR. CALVANICO: Give it to the reporter. 15 One other thing I would like to mention, 16 please. This year we're celebrating the 400th 17 anniversary of Henry Hudson having landed in the 18 Hudson River and dropped anchor here, not far from 19 where we stand this evening. Let me tell you, if you 20 read his diary of 400 years ago, as well as the diary 21 of one of the mates onboard, they speak about the 22 Palisade Cliffs as the beautiful high hills on this 23 river. And that is something that was certainly 24 commemorated by records from 400 years ago, that 25 shows you how important and how impressive they were 187 1 then. 2 And I really would like for you to 3 understand that they continue to be impressive to 4 many people, whether they come from this country or 5 not. And really your job, as mentioned here by 6 several others, is really to protect these assets 7 that we cannot replace in any regard. 8 So I certainly urge you, if you are 9 taking a vote tonight, to vote no. 10 Thank you. 11 MR. JAMES: Good evening. I'll try and 12 be very brief. 13 Richard James, 31 Griffith Street, 14 Jersey City, on the cliff of the Palisade. 15 You are voting tonight, I guess, on 16 what's really a variance or a waiver application. 17 Though I didn't hear an awful lot of coaching 18 arguments for granting a variance, I think it's an 19 economic hardship variance. What I found 20 particularly disturbing about the expert witnesses is 21 that they established, quite competently, that 22 there's a lot of geotechnical work still to be done, 23 engineering work on the Palisades, that presumably 24 affects the economic cost of this project. 25 I really don't see how you can vote on a 188 1 hardship variance or waiver without having critical 2 information on the engineering task ahead. It really 3 seems like first the verdict and then the trial. 4 Quite frankly, as somebody that has been 5 involved in planning, in Hudson County and Jersey 6 City for about 30 years, I'm rather disturbed that 7 we're delegating to reports after the fact, a rather 8 important and, I'm afraid, precedent-setting planning 9 decision. 10 The preservation of the Palisades is 11 really a landmark going back about hundred years in 12 both American planning history and American 13 environmental history. It kind of saddens me to be 14 here tonight and hearing that what I think should be 15 really a strong planning defense of the Palisades, is 16 being, it would appear, deferred to some 17 after-the-fact report. 18 I just wanted to mention in passing, on 19 the hardship application I believe that the testimony 20 for the hardship was really offered by a geotechnical 21 engineer, which I also find rather disturbing. 22 The notion of hardship and variance is 23 very, very complex in planning law. Generally in 24 municipal planning we talk about the negative and the 25 positive criteria and (c) variance and (d) variance 189 1 and I do hope that in your discussion this evening, 2 of the variance or waiver you're being asked to vote 3 on, that your discussion and vote reflects a very 4 deep understanding of exactly what is involved when a 5 public body grants a variance from the law that the 6 rest of us have to follow. 7 Thank you. 8 (Applause.) 9 MR. LOCRETIO: Richard Locretio, 8900 10 Boulevard East, North Bergen. 11 At this point I think you guys have 12 heard both sides of the public portion. And with 13 respect to everybody that's been here for four hours, 14 I don't think that we're hearing anything new. I 15 mean at what point do we close it down and have a 16 vote and get a decision one way or another? 17 MR. OURY: Pretty soon I hope. 18 MR. LOCRETIO: We have been here for 19 four hours. I mean it's repetitive at this point. 20 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Well, they 21 haven't gotten the test results back. 22 (Applause.) 23 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I just got a 24 few questions. We're going to go back to this 25 variance, all right? Who votes on the variance, is 190 1 it the Freeholders or us? Who is the authority, is 2 it the State of New Jersey or the County? I'm still 3 confused on that. 4 MR. CALVANICO: The County has Land 5 Development Regulations that regulate what this Board 6 does. Those regulations include a general provision 7 for granting of a waiver from any of the requirements 8 of the entire Land Development Code. Okay? 9 With respect to the steep slope issue, 10 because the State regulation is more specific, we 11 were subsuming those regulations within the County's 12 regulation. 13 So the State regulation is specific. 14 I'm going to read it to the Board so that you 15 understand exactly what the language of it says so 16 that you fully understand what it is you're voting 17 on. I can do that now. 18 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: We vote on 19 the waiver now? 20 MR. CALVANICO: No, if the Board -- the 21 Board is being asked to vote to approve or disapprove 22 this project. If they vote to approve it, in order 23 to do so you need to do so by virtue of a waiver. 24 Because of the regulations that are in place. The 25 regulations prohibit the development unless a waiver 191 1 is granted. So the Board would have to find that 2 there's grounds for a waiver under the regulations. 3 So when the Board takes its vote 4 tonight, that's what they will be voting on. They 5 will be voting on whether there's sufficient evidence 6 presented to grant a waiver from the requirement of 7 the regulation which is in place. 8 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: But who 9 adopted those regulations, was it the County 10 Freeholders that adopted it? 11 MR. CALVANICO: The Freeholders adopt 12 the regulations but they are regulations that govern 13 this Board. 14 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I don't 15 understand that. Aren't they the responsible persons 16 to waive that? I mean you know. . . 17 MR. CALVANICO: The Land Development 18 Regulations are delegated to the County Planning 19 Board. That's by virtue of the statute that 20 regulates the County Planning Board. So that the 21 County Planning Board is charged with the 22 responsibility of enforcing those regulations. The 23 Freeholders have to approve them as they approve all 24 other regulations that govern the county, traffic 25 regulations, crime, whatever it is. 192 1 But the land development portion of that 2 is delegated to this Board for approval, disapproval, 3 whatever. 4 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Who's 5 responsible? 6 MR. CALVANICO: Madam Chairlady, maybe 7 if I read the regulation so the Board's clear on it? 8 This comes out of New Jersey Administrative Code, 9 Section -- it's Title 7:15-5.25. Initial Section 36. 10 Steep slopes shall be protected from 11 avoidable disturbance in accordance with this 12 section. 13 Compliance with the standard shall be 14 demonstrated by submission of copies of municipal 15 ordinances that prevent new disturbance for projects 16 or activities, except as provided in F61 and 2 below. 17 Those two sections. 18 61 is redevelopment within the limits of 19 existing impervious subsurfaces. That doesn't apply 20 here. 21 Section 2 is the applicable section. 22 Any disturbance necessary to protect public health, 23 safety or welfare, these are exceptions now to the 24 initial, to provide an environmental benefit, to 25 prevent extraordinary hardship on the property owner 193 1 peculiar to the property, or to prevent extraordinary 2 hardship, provided the hardship was not created by 3 the property owner, that would not permit a minimum 4 economically viable use of the property based upon 5 reasonable investment. 6 So those are the standards that the 7 Board is operating under. Those are the exceptions, 8 those are the waiver standards that are before you 9 tonight. 10 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Could we have 11 the annotations, the case law on that? 12 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: What's the 13 economic hardship? 14 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Self-created. 15 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Are you finished? 16 He's still explaining. 17 MR. CALVANICO: Those are the 18 exceptions. As indicated earlier, when Mr. Curley 19 spoke, there was three specific conditions that were 20 also presented, that have to do with the design of 21 the stabilization, the posting of the appropriate 22 bonds, and any impact upon the County's Discharge 23 Permit. Those were the three conditions. 24 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Madam Chair, I 25 wanted to add some of the engineering concerns since 194 1 we're considering a vote on this tonight. 2 I'm looking at it from a standpoint from 3 engineering, the county roadways, specifically 4 Boulevard East and River Road, traffic and drainage. 5 And the concerns that I have are significant but they 6 could be conditioned if the vote is made. 7 The items that we would want to include 8 in a condition would be the continuation of the 9 evaluation of the Palisades on the stability. The 10 reports be provided to the County Engineer and County 11 Planning Departments for review and for our 12 consultants to review. 13 Additionally, we would like a 14 certification from the engineer, the developer's 15 engineer, that their stormwater plan complies with 16 all the DEP regulations. 17 Additionally, the inspection, the 18 maintenance program, that the Township has acquired 19 from the developer, that we be provided a copy, at 20 least the County Engineer's office be provided a copy 21 of that report. That that report provide 22 recommendations, as well, for improvements. 23 And additionally, the performance bond, 24 maintenance bond mentioned by the Township, that the 25 County be party on that bond. 195 1 And finally, I think we would like a 2 meeting with the County Engineer, the Township 3 Engineer and developer's engineers and just the 4 engineers to go over all of the engineering issues, 5 the design of the detainment system, the 6 stabilization system, and discuss other issues we may 7 have. There may be other things that may come up, if 8 there's an estimate for the cost of the wall, that we 9 may want the performance bond to be increased. 10 So those are at least the engineering 11 concerns that I have. 12 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Chairman? 13 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Now the public 14 portion is finished and I think we ought to give an 15 opportunity to applicant's attorney, Dennis Oury, to 16 make his closing statement. 17 MR. OURY: Members of the Board, what 18 I'm going to do is take five or ten minutes only and 19 just address some of the issues that have just been 20 raised and to succinctly state our position with 21 regard to this application. 22 Many of the objectors, who got up 23 tonight, talked in terms of saving the Palisades and 24 preserving preservation of the Palisades. Young 25 woman from the women's club came and made it 196 1 abundantly clear that her organization for many years 2 has been working for conservation of the Palisades 3 and other what we would call natural beauties. 4 I want to make this extremely clear. 5 You may vote yes, you may vote no, this ordinance 6 that you are empowered to vote on this evening, is 7 not a "Save the Palisades" Ordinance. It is a 8 Stormwater Management ordinance. It has to do with 9 water quality, it does not have to do with saving the 10 Palisades. That may be a laudable -- and I will get 11 to that issue because I don't think we're harming the 12 Palisades, but that is not what your ordinance is 13 about. You are given the power by the County 14 Freeholders, just like any mayor and council gives to 15 the planning board and board of adjustment, the power 16 to grant variances. 17 Gentleman got up and talked about (c) 18 and (d) variances. That is a situation that comes up 19 before municipalities, local planning boards and 20 boards of adjustment. You don't grant (c) and (d) 21 variances because you don't have zoning powers. Your 22 powers deal with site plan issues, drainage, 23 sewerage, the stability of your road system and 24 traffic access issues. You don't deal with zoning 25 issues, that's left to the local municipalities. 197 1 So when we look at this ordinance, the 2 ordinance was passed, I believe in October of 2008, 3 and it's the County's position that it was required 4 to pass this ordinance by the DEP regulations that 5 were put in place sometime before that. That 6 ordinance -- and Mr. Calvanico and I, over the 7 Christmas holidays, actually went back and forth on 8 this issue because he was concerned that the 9 ordinance itself, that was passed, did not give an 10 escape valve, that is a variance provision, within 11 that ordinance. 12 However, your general ordinance, as he 13 stated tonight, and I agree with him on what the law 14 is, the general ordinance provides that you grant 15 waivers, and as do you with every application that 16 comes before, I don't think you've probably had an 17 application where you haven't granted some type of a 18 waiver, which is a variance. 19 What Mr. Calvanico says I also agree 20 with, is that the DEP regulations provide for a 21 variance or waiver under certain conditions. This is 22 not a gray area, black and -- it is not a 23 black-and-white area, it is an area that the State 24 has promulgated, which says you have the right to 25 grant the variances. And it must say that, 198 1 otherwise, basically what you have done is taken 2 people's property without due compensation. 3 So the regulation that you need to 4 employ tonight does require and provide for a 5 variance. 6 As was testified to at the previous 7 meeting, and I believe this evening, this property 8 was purchased in 2006, the last lot, which was the 9 lot that was purchased from North Bergen. This 10 regulation, the Land Use Regulation by the County, 11 was adopted in October of 2008, some two years later. 12 It is not self-created by this applicant. As a 13 matter of fact, the approval by the North Bergen 14 Planning Board predates your ordinance. 15 Now, we found out about the ordinance 16 after we got the approval from North Bergen, only 17 because it had just been adopted some 30 days before. 18 So this is not self-created. My client spent, as 19 Mr. Bertin said, $8 million on a set of circumstances 20 which did not include a steep slope regulation. 21 Now, I agree that this Board has to 22 abide by the DEP regulations, however, I also agree 23 that those regulations, as I stated before, provides 24 for a waiver or a variance. 25 In this particular case, I hate to use 199 1 the term no-brainer, but here's the facts. You can't 2 disagree with the facts, you may disagree on the 3 interpretation of those facts but the facts are my 4 client purchased the property two years before the 5 regulation came into effect. He spent $8 million so 6 far on the purchase of the property. If you do not 7 apply -- if you do apply the Steep Slope Ordinance 8 without variation, we could place on the property a 9 5,800 square foot building, which is basically the 10 size of a 7-Eleven and maybe a dry cleaner. It's 11 going to cost a million and a half dollars to build 12 the building. So with an investment of $10 million 13 you get to rent a 5,800 square foot building for 14 about $25 a foot. It's about $145,000 a year income 15 and from that you have to take out real estate taxes. 16 So my point to you is it's really not a 17 reach to say that this is not an economically 18 feasible project if you strictly apply the ordinance. 19 Here's what our position is. And we 20 disagree and I understand the disagreement that some 21 of the folks have with us on this. Their purpose and 22 their organization's purpose is to preserve the 23 natural state of the Palisades. 24 North Bergen rezoned this property for 25 this use for a reason. You know as well as I do, 200 1 from North Bergen -- from Edgewater, frankly, all the 2 way down through Jersey City, highrise buildings pop 3 up along the river. In North Bergen, I've 4 represented a few applicants in North Bergen for 5 highrise buildings. It's a bone of contention. The 6 mayor and the council had been rezoning this, who had 7 the foresight to say, look, we need some retail 8 support in that area of North Bergen, we have a lot 9 of residents but we have no retail support, we'll 10 allow them to build retail at a height of 30 feet. 11 Now, the previous ordinance allowed 12 eight stories and I think it might have been 90 or a 13 hundred feet. That would block the view of the 14 Palisades, there's no question about it. 15 Directly next door to the north of this 16 property is an approval for an eight or nine-story 17 building, which has yet to be built but the approval 18 is in place. 19 The point I'm trying to make to you is 20 if you want to look at this as a preservation issue, 21 what we're suggesting here is to remove what we call 22 the overburden, which is just loose rock that's come 23 off the Palisades, and you'll be able to have a view 24 of the Palisades, which is the vertical rock. If you 25 go by this property and you stand in front of it and 201 1 you look to the right, the property under "Suicide 2 Bridge," that's exactly what you're going to be 3 looking at, a vertical rockface that goes from 4 elevation of River Road all the way to the top of 5 Boulevard East. 6 So I think that this Board -- and by the 7 way, our position on dealing with the stability issue 8 is consistent with the report by PMK. I didn't 9 disagree with Mr. Arencibia, I thought I made that 10 clear. The only reason I bring up the report is 11 because the report, it says that there are 12 engineering fixes to these type of stability issues. 13 We have a room full of engineers on your side and my 14 side and North Bergen side, who will sit here and 15 tell you there's an engineering fix to a problem. We 16 can do test borings, which usually it's out of the 17 ordinary for us to do it at this point but we're 18 doing it and we're drilling because North Bergen is 19 requiring it and as we go forward we'll supply the 20 County engineers and North Bergen's engineers with 21 the information. They will develop a plan to 22 stabilize the rock. Your engineers, the North Bergen 23 engineers, will have to approve that plan. 24 This is not an all-or-nothing situation, 25 this is a situation that can be fixed and we can't 202 1 know what's under the ground until we start to remove 2 it. It's not unusual. Ninety-nine out of a hundred 3 applications before a planning board or a board of 4 adjustment, that has engineering issues, approves the 5 plan subject to getting all of the information as the 6 project moves forward. That's why we have developer 7 agreements, that's why the local engineer reviews the 8 project as it moves forward. In any community. 9 So I guess my point -- and the 10 protections that we talk about, or that were raised 11 here, the statute requires performance bonds. This 12 County, I think, and Mr. Arencibia or Mr. Marks can 13 correct me, any application I've ever had with Hudson 14 County, your standard operating procedure is to 15 require a performance bond for the work that relates 16 to the County. North Bergen has already required us 17 to post a million dollars for the stability issue. 18 It may go higher than that, based upon the plan that 19 we develop, and the County will be a beneficiary of 20 that performance bond to make sure the work gets 21 done. Thereafter, North Bergen has an ordinance that 22 requires inspections. If you want to make it a part 23 of your application -- your approval, we have no 24 problem with that. 25 Someone got up and talked about well, 203 1 what happens when Bank of America goes bankrupt? You 2 know, every single project that comes before any 3 board in this country runs that risk. That's why you 4 have performance bonds. To make sure that the public 5 work that is required by the Board gets performed and 6 gets accomplished. 7 I can't stand here and tell you that 8 Bank of America may not go bankrupt or they may, 9 that's not a concern for this Board. The concern for 10 this Board is the water quality management. That's 11 put upon you through the ordinance and the DEP 12 regulations, which has been answered. 13 We already heard Mr. Reimon and I made 14 the point at the beginning and I'll reiterate it. 15 Mr. Reimon reviewed the water quality issues and the 16 sewer issues with Mr. Bertin months ago. The only 17 reason we're here, and the reason we took a bit of a 18 time, is the stability issue, the rock stability 19 issue. 20 What I'm suggesting to you is you are 21 going to participate as this project goes forward, 22 through your engineering firm, to make sure that's 23 done correctly. We want to make sure that's done 24 correctly but the assurance is that the town has 25 hired its own engineer and you have your engineer. 204 1 I don't want to waste any more time on 2 this. In sum, I think it's pretty clear that there 3 are objectors here who have in mind the saving of the 4 Palisades. There are residents of North Bergen who 5 have in mind that while the Palisades is something of 6 beauty, that this project is not going to have a 7 negative impact upon it and a ratable is needed. 8 Keep in mind, this Board has been given 9 sufficient information, we have held back nothing. 10 The only issue -- there's no stormwater issues, 11 there's no issues other than the drilling that's 12 going on and you will have continuing jurisdiction 13 over that. 14 Unless you have any questions, I will 15 sit down -- I'm sorry. 16 COMMISSIONER NG: I'm so sorry. We 17 voted to stay for half an hour. It's 35 minutes. 18 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: We're over time. 19 We're over. 20 MR. OURY: I'm done. 21 COMMISSIONER NG: We have no 22 consistency. 23 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: I'm sorry, he 24 wanted to sum up. Go ahead, Steve. 25 Any Board Members have any questions? 205 1 Anybody want to make a motion? 2 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Our attorney 3 already made, engineer already made -- 4 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: I made my 5 comments. 6 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Chairman, this has 7 been very difficult for me. This morning I had to 8 take two difficult votes, one was a budget and now 9 this. The issue that I had with this one was the 10 issue of the road and that was answered. The other 11 issue was the flood and that issue was answered. The 12 Palisades, that issue was answered. We had an expert 13 that came and told us that actually we're going to 14 better the Palisades when we stabilize it. 15 (Applause.) 16 If we didn't have this project we're 17 going to have to do that anyway because we as a 18 County have to make sure that there's no rock falling 19 on that road. 20 The other issue is economic issue. I 21 mean this is going to bring jobs into this area. 22 We're losing a lot of jobs. 23 Last week I got like about thirty or 24 forty residents from my district coming into my 25 office asking for letter of recommendations. I said 206 1 if it creates 150, 100 jobs, those are probably jobs 2 that are going to go into my district. Environmental 3 people have to look into this. Is this going to go 4 into the Open Space Fund? The Open Space Fund is 5 used to fix parks around the county. All over the 6 County of Hudson. 7 I would make a motion to approve this 8 project with the conditions that the engineer has put 9 in place and that was on the record. I think the 10 Palisades are not being touched. I went by there 11 today and there's a big pile of rubble standing right 12 there. 13 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: They made it. 14 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: They created 15 it. 16 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: So I make a motion. 17 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: I second it. 18 (Applause.) 19 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Before I vote 20 on this, our engineer will be informed of every move 21 these people make? 22 MR. REIMON: I believe so. We're going 23 to be involved in the review of the reports, together 24 with the engineer from the municipality, and from the 25 engineer that is representing the developer. And 207 1 also with the County Engineer's office of course. 2 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Actually, I would 3 like to put on record that I would like to have all 4 these reports. If you can forward to my office, 5 copies of every report that comes into the 6 Department, with explanations, technical 7 explanations? 8 MR. REIMON: I'd be more than happy to 9 forward the report to you, but I believe that also 10 the developer has a responsibility to provide the 11 Board with additional copies if we request so. 12 MR. OURY: That's correct. 13 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: I wanted to 14 make sure that you keep us abreast of what's going 15 on. Because we're put in a difficult situation. 16 Actually the County Planning Board is not like a 17 regular planning board. We just make sure that 18 there's no, as far as water damage, or roadways, and 19 we want to restrict it to a certain level of 20 jurisdiction which is county roads, sewerage and 21 right of way. 22 So actually I would like an update on 23 every -- you know, at the next meeting, can you give 24 us another -- you know, keep us updated on everything 25 on this? And on the recommendations that if the 208 1 County Engineer feels that they are not doing the 2 proper things there, that whatever happens is null 3 and void. 4 MR. REIMON: I fully understand your 5 concerns. I am going to say again that we're going 6 to work with the County Engineer, as we always do, 7 we're going to review all of the documentation that 8 is going to be provided to us, and we're going to 9 report to the Planning Board members. And we're 10 going to issue a report if they have requested. And 11 we're representing you, you are our clients, so 12 that's our responsibility. 13 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: There's a motion 14 on the table. 15 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Go ahead. 16 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, there is a 17 motion to conditionally approve application 18 2008-083-SP/SD, with the conditions that were 19 mentioned by the County Engineer and the Planning 20 Board's attorneys. Motion was made by Commissioner 21 Munoz and seconded by Commissioner Holloway. 22 Should I do the roll call? 23 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Roll call. 24 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Arencibia? 25 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Aye. 209 1 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 2 Fitzgibbons? 3 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 4 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Holloway? 5 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 6 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Mehta? 7 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Aye. 8 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Munoz? 9 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Aye. 10 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner NG? 11 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 12 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairwoman Avagliano? 13 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Vote aye. 14 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, the motion 15 passes. 16 (Applause.) 17 Madam Chair. 18 (Whereupon, a discussion is held off the 19 record.) 20 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Chairman, I'd like 21 to ask our attorneys to draft for the future, so we 22 don't have this, draft rules on how the public should 23 speak. If we have them already, we should clarify 24 them. How long the public should speak, how that 25 should proceed. If we don't have anything adopted, I 210 1 think this Board adopt some organization into the 2 public part. 3 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: The applications 4 declared exempt. 5 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Do you want to do 6 it? 7 DIRECTOR MARKS: Yes. 8 Madam Chair, Section 5-D on the agenda 9 is applications to be declared exempt. Beginning 10 with application 2009-008-SD, Angel Coronel, 11 located -- applicant located at 13-15 7th Street, 12 which is Block 160, Lot 23, in the Town of Harrison. 13 Application 2009-017-SP, Omnipoint 14 Communications Inc., located at 120 Theodore Conway 15 Drive, which is Block 310, Lot 11A in the City of 16 Jersey City. 17 Application 2009-018-SP, Omnipoint 18 Communications Inc., located at 101 Linden Avenue, 19 which is Block 1501, Lots 20 and 2, in the City of 20 Jersey City. 21 Application 2009-019-SP, MetroPCS, 22 located at 300 Communipaw Avenue, which is Block 23 2049, Lot A1, in the City of Jersey City. 24 And application 2009-021-SD, Muhammad 25 Bashir, applicant located at 6-8 Holmes Avenue, which 211 1 is Block 1634, Lot 24.99, in the City of Jersey City. 2 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: I make a motion. 3 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Second. 4 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, on a 5 motion made by Commissioner Mehta, seconded by 6 Commissioner Munoz. 7 Commissioner Arencibia? 8 COMMISSIONER ARENCIBIA: Aye. 9 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner 10 Fitzgibbons? 11 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Aye. 12 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Holloway? 13 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: Aye. 14 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Mehta? 15 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: Aye. 16 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner Munoz? 17 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Aye. 18 DIRECTOR MARKS: Commissioner NG? 19 COMMISSIONER NG: Aye. 20 DIRECTOR MARKS: Chairwoman Avagliano? 21 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Aye. 22 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, the motion 23 passed. 24 CHAIRWOMAN AVAGLIANO: Any Old Business? 25 New Business? 212 1 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: New Business is we 2 can try to get to organize the public session or 3 research something. 4 DIRECTOR MARKS: Madam Chair, there's 5 nothing in place, but the appropriate place to put 6 the actual limitations would be in the bylaws. 7 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: We can discuss this 8 next week. 9 DIRECTOR MARKS: We'll draft something. 10 COMMISSIONER FITZGIBBONS: Actually, if 11 we are going to update a limit of time for the public 12 to speak, we should have a clock here too. Those 13 timers. 14 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY: That's a good 15 idea. 16 COMMISSIONER MUNOZ: Motion to close the 17 meeting. 18 COMMISSIONER MEHTA: I second. 19 DIRECTOR MARKS: All in favor? 20 (A Round of ayes.) 21 (Whereupon, the proceedings adjourned at 22 11:20 p.m.) 23 24 25 213 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 4 I, JOANNE M. OPPERMANN, a Certified 5 Court Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New 6 Jersey, do hereby state that the foregoing is a true 7 and accurate transcript of my stenographic notes of 8 the within proceedings, to the best of my ability. 9 10 11 12 ____________________________ 13 JOANNE M. OPPERMANN, C.C.R. License No. XI01435 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25